300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
It's claimed that since it stops photosynthesis, it reduces the amount of chlorophyll in the harvested buds by some amount and sort of gives you a little head start on curing.

sounds feasible, and won't hurt anything, so why not?

I'm going to continue running my exhaust and circulation fans to prevent mold.
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Interesting, could be another side by side, just have to find an objectometer :)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

dogsnova said:
This is funny... My LED girls finished faster then my HID girls did (by aprox 5 days).. Your's are opposite...lol.. I get a cal/mag deficiency with my LED girls not my HID girls.. And sure enough you got a cal/mag deficiency with your HID girls and not so much with your LED girls...lol... Just shows how different these girls can be..
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that is funny.

I would have expected no less from our ladies ;).

What's the strain you grew that you're referring to above?
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

SnowBender said:
Id sure love to hear/see how your fingers and scissors look after trimming each tent. if possible.
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what I like to do is use two scissors and then alternate soaking them in a glass of alcohol when they get gummed up, so when I'm done all I have to show for my trimming is a glass filled with greenish alcohol.

I don't like wearing gloves, so my fingers do get sticky, and I usually can get enough resin off my fingers to fuel the process along ;)

I always think about letting the alcohol in the glass evaporate off and then smoking the residue, but by the time it's evaporated off, I've usually thrown it away thinking it's trash, lol

am planning to keep the trim separate from each group and do two separate runs of bubble hash, so that should be interesting.

thanks Snowbender!
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

you could dip your scissors in drinking alcohol. it would clean your scissors and the residue would also release into the alcohol since cannabis compounds are alcohol/fat soluble. then instead of throwing it away all together you just throw away the soilds and drink the liquid.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

astroastro said:
Sun- the plants look fantastic- you ability to dial in the grow space to the LED is- well, I am speechless. Excellent, outstanding.
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thank you!

Down the terminology rat hole, final.

We have been using HID lights for years and these lights were originally designed to aid human eyesight in areas of limited or no ambient light. The output of these lights are described in 'lumens'. Unfortunately a lumen is, in engineering terms, a relative term that refers to how well a light will assist human eyesight. Across the photometric visible spectrum which both humans and plants utilize, the human utilization curve is virtually the inverse to that of the curves in the red and blue spectrum that the photosynthizing portions of the plant utilize. Lumens, and virtually all other human eye related metrics refering to the quality of light, including CCT and CRI, are terrible indicators of how a light source will perform in a horticultural application. These terms are how a manufacturer who is designing a light source for the human eye would describe the technical qualities of the light. My first indoor grow was in '82 or '83 in the great Pacific Northwest, so I too 'grew up' using the term 'lumen'. It took a long time before a friend (who was really a genius with these things) finally pounded it into my thick skull what a useless term the lumen really was for horticultural applications. Yet the term lumen persists, firmly entrenched in the terminology rat hole.

So now we move on to LED's, which from a pure technical standpoint, should easily be the most controllable and efficient form of light for horticultural applications- even better than the CMH bulb as described in this thread. And we find ourselves heading right back down a descriptively meaningless terminology rat hole, only this time the rat hole word is 'Watt'. Watt is, yet again, a poor indicator of the quality of light that a fixture is providing. And it does not have to be this way, as the quality of light (any light) can be described using two terms- wavelength and amplitude. Wavelength describes the relative energy level of the photon itself, and Cla/ Clb are tuned to specific wavelengths. Amplitude tells you how much of any particular wavelength you have. Simple- wavelength and amplitude, wavelength and amplitude, wavelength and amplitude. These two metrics can be easily shown with a simple photometric chart which shows radiant output in terms of true photon count (umol) or energy level (Watt). Either is fairly indicative of the quality of light- photosynthesis is a photon driven event, therefore photon count (umol) could possibly be argued to be better. Also- the indication needs to be absolute, not relative- relative indications, as shown in the CMH chart on page 83, make the CMH look 'shitloads' better than than the HPS at the right side, which, if shown in true absolute terms, would NOT be the case. NOTE THE TERM 'RELATIVE ENERGY' ON THE Y AXIS OF THE CHART. This is how they trick you with charts.

OK- back the LED and the Watt- again, Watt as it seems to be used in the marketing of these lights is a terrible term by which one can judge the quality of the actual light output of the system. An example as follows:



Wouldn't these be better described and marketed as '1.7' and '1.3' Watt 'arrays', 'modules', or perhaps 'light engine'? This is just an observation- I am not ragging on this guys lights, but it is an observation that any design guy familiar with LED technology would point out. To say they are '3W LEDs' leads to all the confusion regarding power that you can clearly see when following this thread thru start to finish. Also, I take issue with describing muti-element LED arrays as 'LEDs'- a true 1W or 3W or 5W 'LED die' is a totally different animal in terms of efficiency and light output compared to an array composed of 3, or 4, or 5, or whatever, individual, 1/4 or 1/2 Watt LED dies- yes, there is a huge difference.

Finally- 'Watt' is a terrible descriptor of performance for an LED because the efficiency of the individual LED's themselves- efficiency = electrical power in vs. radiant power out, is highly variable and dependent upon (1) LED process and materials (the best 'red' are worse than the the best 'blue' by a factor of at least 3x, and the gap is growing daily) (2) bin code (3) junction temperature, and (4) forward current.

Again- the only way to know for sure is to see the photometric output chart, in absolute terms. I cannot say this enough, because it is the simple truth, and everyone interested in LED technology should know this fact. Any repectable LED maker should have this information readily available- either from a spectroradiometer or an integration sphere- we have several versions of both- this is simple, basic engineering equipment in the LED design field.

So everyone can get mad at me for this message and yell at me- I am married so I am accustomed to it. Still a big Seattle Seahawks fan, so you can see the level of abuse I can tolerate. If you can keep your argument strictly to the technical merits of what I have had to say, I am OK.

Thanks again Sun for the fantastic grow. Looking forward to more great work guys like you and Irish and the other guys have done for the humble LED.
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These erroneous terms and concepts have achieved popular usage through ignorance, convenience, or whatever the reason. I don't think we're going to get the cow back in the barn anytime soon, so what's to be done?

I'd rather be an infinitesimal part of the solution than an infinitesimal part of the problem.

As an engineer friend of mine likes to say, "the nice thing about standards is that there's so many of them"

;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
How many watts of clear incs do you run?

sounds interesting
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Same amount of wattage used for flowering... 400w of clear inc's for HPS tent and 300w of clear inc's for the LED tent..

You run the clear inc's (only) 12/12 for the last 2 to 4 days of flowering..

It improves the oils and flavor and gives the girls and extra little sparkle..:grinjoint:.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I keep my trimmers in a glass with organic olive oil and then cook with it. less resin seems to stick to oiled blades compared to ones cleaned in alcohol. I also use oil to remove the last of the stickies from my fingers, and then just lick it off.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Love the journal SS! Every page I learn something new. Some I even understand :) Thanks so much.

Count me in wanting to see a cmh vs hps vert grow. Whatever you do is sure to be interesting. :peace:
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

dogsnova said:
Same amount of wattage used for flowering... 400w of clear inc's for HPS tent and 300w of clear inc's for the LED tent..

You run the clear inc's (only) 12/12 for the last 2 to 4 days of flowering..

It improves the oils and flavor and gives the girls and extra little sparkle..:grinjoint:.
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Do you use them in clamp lights, hang them bare, or some other arrangement?

sorry for all the questions, but I'd like to check this out on my next grow.

thanks bro ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

SnowBender said:
I keep my trimmers in a glass with organic olive oil and then cook with it. less resin seems to stick to oiled blades compared to ones cleaned in alcohol. I also use oil to remove the last of the stickies from my fingers, and then just lick it off.
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great tip!

I couldn't find one of my scissors, so I tried something else on this harvest, but I will definitely keep your suggestion in mind.

thanks SB!
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

BlueDog said:
Love the journal SS! Every page I learn something new. Some I even understand :) Thanks so much.
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The people who participate on these boards a wealth of knowledge and experience and everyone benefits. I don't understand everything either, but even so, my gardening is progressing thanks to the free exchange of info.

Count me in wanting to see a cmh vs hps vert grow. Whatever you do is sure to be interesting. :peace:
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One plant in a coffee can under a CFL is interesting to me, as long as it's the right plant :ganjamon:

thank you for the kind words BlueDog, I appreciate it ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

OK, I pulled an all-nighter last night and harvested the HID tent.

Went very well. It took every bit of time I expected it would, but I had a good time.

The HID buds are drying and I'm probably going to harvest the LED tent tomorrow night. I unplugged the Spectra last night, so they've been in the dark for one cycle.

I'm completely exhausted, so I'm going to go crash and dream sweet PPP dreams ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
OK, I pulled an all-nighter last night and harvested the HID tent.

Went very well. It took every bit of time I expected it would, but I had a good time.

The HID buds are drying and I'm probably going to harvest the LED tent tomorrow night. I unplugged the Spectra last night, so they've been in the dark for one cycle.

I'm completely exhausted, so I'm going to go crash and dream sweet PPP dreams ;)
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Good old trim party!:)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Enjoy those last moments w/ your PPP girls. I'm sure that the quality, smell, and amount will all be exactly what you wanted. I look forward to the harvest report and most importantly, pictures! Keep up the good work SS
 

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