Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[SweetSue]

This is the calculation for the number of moles of water vapor it would take to produce 5.9psi at 70f in a chamber with a volume of 339cmm. It translates to .1015g.

Step-by-step solution:
Converting pressure to SI units.
P = 40679.0663 Pa
Converting volume to SI units.
V = 0.000339 m³
Converting temperature to SI units.
T = 294.26111111111 K
R = 8.3144621 J/(mol*K)
Computing number of moles using the selected equation.
n = 0.0056364238741574

Don’t be that impressed. There is a calculator for everything.

This page has lots with options if anyone wants to play with some numbers.

This is the calculated co2 pressures for run 2. They are based 3% converted CBD and 7% THC.

Temp	Pressure
70	2.855
100	3.017
150	3.286
200	3.555
230	3.717
250	3.825

Back to the H2O pressures, at 250f and 37psi there would be 0.48g of vapor. These are some numbers that were present in test 1. They are not posted yet.

Both runs lost 0.4 grams on a scale that weighs in 0.1 increments.

The decarb accounts for 0.12g of the 0.4g of weight loss. Another 0.1 of water vapor is possible at the final 5.9 psi.

That leaves 0.27g plus or minus 0.1 as loss. That can be accounted for from condensation on the chamber walls and what was in it. Other possibilities are errors, terpene and aromatic loss.

I never know

Now I have to ask, didn't posting all those calculations make the geeky part of your scientific brain jump for joy? Canyon, I'm in awe at how you guys fell into the deciphering of the decarb process and infused oils. A while ago I googled my study hall and went looking at what other sites thought of the work we do over here at 420 Magazine. What I found made me chuckle in appreciation. On one site someone said it was too technical. Made me proud to be part of this team.

 

[greatwolf]

I've been having great success with high pressure at 110 minutes (1 hr, 50 minutes). My Instant Pot goes to that setting by default now. I decarb in the pressure cooker. My hot oil bath check found this was giving me close to what I estimate to be about 80-90% decarb. I don't concern myself with total decarb, now that we know that THCA will perform some of the inflammatory relief functions CBD does. I find I'm very comfortable with a diversified cannabinoid profile in my oils.

I use a pot-in-pot method with my Instant Pot. I purchased it to make FHO, but I'm not happy with the oil quality made like that, so I'm now drying buds low and slo and then making a regular infused with those buds. I feel confident that I'm getting very close to FHO quality this way.

Yes, I remember us talking about that and I thought the cause was the amount of water present.

Thanks for confirming the numbers. I'll try this as soon as I get around 62% rh (I'll post the weight in my journal at the time).

Cheers from the darkside

 

[greatwolf]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

I've been having great success with high pressure at 110 minutes (1 hr, 50 minutes). My Instant Pot goes to that setting by default now. I decarb in the pressure cooker. My hot oil bath check found this was giving me close to what I estimate to be about 80-90% decarb. I don't concern myself with total decarb, now that we know that THCA will perform some of the inflammatory relief functions CBD does. I find I'm very comfortable with a diversified cannabinoid profile in my oils.

I use a pot-in-pot method with my Instant Pot. I purchased it to make FHO, but I'm not happy with the oil quality made like that, so I'm now drying buds low and slo and then making a regular infused with those buds. I feel confident that I'm getting very close to FHO quality this way.

I'll post the steps and results later, but looking at as it's cooling in the jar, should the oil be a very, very dark green?

Also, for about 100ml yield, how much lecithin should I add, 1tsp?

Back to the darkside

 

[InTheShed]

...so I'm now drying buds low and slo and then making a regular infused with those buds.

Have you given up the dehydrator method you were using in the Low and Slow thread? I know that TheMadDabber has a dehydrator and is very close to his first harvest so I'd like to pass any new info along to him. I'm pretty sure he can't take over his fridge, for marriage preservation reasons .

 

[greatwolf]

Copied from my Journal:

A little difficult to write this (that will teach me to follow Sue's example and lick the spoons ).

First, an update on drying techniques:

Freezing/Vacuum Drying - this produced a slightly drier product in the same short time. But did it also start curing the material? The reason I bring this up is the final color; it is not as apparent in the first photo below, but in the second you can clearly see it is closer to brown than the green of the other buds. The first day there were were 3 freezes, each for 2 hours. The second day there were 4 freezes - 2 hours, 90 minutes, 1 hour, and 2 hours. The last one it was left for several hours under vacuum before being hung in the rice bag.

Rice Jar Dehydrator - I'm concerned that terpenes are being absorbed by the rice because of a sealed system. The rice retained a strong smell.

Brown bag with rice - effective, simple, should work year round.

Here are the 4 buds:

I decided to go with 3 buds at, at 5.6 grams:

NOTE: BEFORE USING JARS IN A PRESSURE COOKER, ALWAYS CHECK THE JARS. THIS INCLUDES A VISUAL CHECK AND A BOILING WATER CHECK. POUR BOILING WATER INTO THE ROOM TEMPERATURE JAR TO THE TOP. IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE DOING THIS STEP YOU SHOULD NOT BE USING JARS IN A PRESSURE COOKER.

I'm not yelling. I just don't want anyone to miss that particular warning and say I should have warned them. I told you so, okay?

So on to the processing itself. I pulled apart the buds as old bear suggested and added 1/4 MCT oil. Since I do not have an immersion blender, I decided to blend in a small blender prior to heating. I scraped the mix out into a pint jar and loosely screwed on the lid. I placed the jar on the wire trivet in IP, and added 2 cups of water. I set it to Manual, High Pressure, 115 minutes (this is 5 minutes longer than Sue recommended, but I figured the the glass I'm using is less conductive than the metal she is and the additional time wouldn't hurt).

When the cycle was done, I released the pressure, took the jar out, and allowed it to cool to room temperature (this was to conserve any volatile compounds, allowing them to re-condense). I then filtered through 4 layers of cheesecloth and a coffee filter. To complete things, I added 1 tsp sunflower lecithin.

This gave me enough oil for 100 "00" caps and a 15ml syringe full. Now we'll just have to see how effective it is.

Back to the darkside

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Thanx for the report GW. Your question of terpene absorption by the rice is something that's bothered me a bit. Before leaving home last week I harvested a 10" top from a "supposedly" blue dream cbd. Trimmed, it netted me about an ounce and a half wet weight. I allowed it to air dry under a fan for about 18 hours and divided into three fairly equal amounts. One part was placed in a brown paper bag. The other two were sealed in jars and placed into the freezer. In one jar I placed a 10mg silica pack. I have the same question about terpene absorption as you. I'm going to let all three samples cook for three weeks and make tincture using my "orange dragon" process. Unfortunately, I don't have access to lab analysis so I'm going to have to depend on a "seat of the pants" comparison check to get a sense of any difference between the three finished products. Be glad to share any info I may reap.

 

[greatwolf]

Thanx for the report GW. Your question of terpene absorption by the rice is something that's bothered me a bit. Before leaving home last week I harvested a 10" top from a "supposedly" blue dream cbd. Trimmed, it netted me about an ounce and a half wet weight. I allowed it to air dry under a fan for about 18 hours and divided into three fairly equal amounts. One part was placed in a brown paper bag. The other two were sealed in jars and placed into the freezer. In one jar I placed a 10mg silica pack. I have the same question about terpene absorption as you. I'm going to let all three samples cook for three weeks and make tincture using my "orange dragon" process. Unfortunately, I don't have access to lab analysis so I'm going to have to depend on a "seat of the pants" comparison check to get a sense of any difference between the three finished products. Be glad to share any info I may reap.

I remember seeing your orange dragon process, but do you have a link to the post to it so I can find it quick?

Thanks!

 

[Bucudinkydow]

PROCEDURES FOR ORANGE DRAGON

Prepare app 7 grams of material of your choice. I choose to roughly cut buds with scissors. This arguably dissects the plant material fibers and allows an increase of chlorophyll, waxes and other yuckies that contribute to bad taste to leach out into the final product. Some prefer to roughly tear the buds by hand but I fear the precious sticky trichomes adhering to my fingers is a waste of cannabinods.

Time to decarb. In my opinion, there are entirely too many variables to be too anal about this step. Altitude, ambient temp, humidity, moisture content and age of your cannabis and a labyrinth of other factors can effect the perfect time/temp ratio. There are literally dozens of "perfect" decarb times and temps on the web, many substantiated by lab tests. Pick out the one your happy with and go with it.

A note of caution on decarbing in a sealed jar. Granny's ol' mason jar turns out to have insanely insulative properties. A co-conspirator working with me on this project placed an oven thermometer in the empty sealed jar and put it in a preheated oven. It took almost forty minutes before the inside of the jar met the oven temp. I placed the open jar and lid and ring in the oven during the preheat process. When it reached the target temp, I put the prepared cannabis material in the jar and sealed it as quickly as possible trying to avoid a drop in temp of the oven and jar. I then increased my normal 240 for 40 min to 250 for 45 min. This seemed to give a proper decarb. Next time, I'm considering placing an oven thermometer in the jar at the same time as the cannabis to get a better idea of what's going on. Of course, the thermometer will have to remain in the sealed jar through the freeze cycle until opening to add ethanol.

Remove your freshly decarbed material from the oven and allow it to cool for a while before placing it in the freezer. Make sure you don't open the jar!! In a separate jar, pour 3-4 oz of grain alcohol, everclear 190 is a good choice if it's available and place it in the freezer also. 151 ethanol or vodka will work also, just a bit less efficient in extraction. Leave both in the freezer for 24 hours shaking the jarred cannabis vigorously 2-3 times for a couple of minutes.

At the end of 24 hours, pour enough of your chilled everclear into the jar of cannabis to cover it by about 1/2", shake it vigorously for a couple of minutes and return it to the freezer for an additional 2 hours. This should have been the first time you've opened the jar since it initially went in at the beginning of the decarb process. At the end of the 2 hours, remove the cannabis/ethanol mixture from the freezer, shake it vigorously for a couple of minutes once again.

Now it's time to strain, filter and enjoy. Pour the mixture through a close mesh strainer removing as much of the tincture as possible with pressure. Seal the strained jar of tincture and let it set for about ten minutes at an angle if possible. This will allow the sediment to gather and make the next step go a little quicker. Pour the tincture through a paper coffee filter, gently, trying to not disturb the sediment. I normally repeat this last step a second time but that's at your option.

At this stage I normally do a reduction by naturally evaporating the ethanol but I suspect I'm experiencing a loss of molecularly volatile terpenes and will advise skipping this step and make dosage adjustments of the final product to find your sweet spot.

Ethanol extraction never reaches 100% efficiency so there are still goodies left in the used mash. I cap mine and place it in the freezer until my next extraction. Before getting started with your new tincture run, pour your virgin ethanol into your used mash, shake it a bit and strain it up. Use this, then, for your new tincture run.

This is an early beta test that has given pleasing results the few times it's been tried. I'm anxious for those who are interested to give it a try and share your objective experience. The process is a bit involved and reading back over this I question my comprehensive communicative skills. If clarification is neede, I pop in fairly often.

Good luck and enjoy.

BCDD

 

[Bucudinkydow]

A couple of updates on the decarb process. I placed an oven thermometer in an empty sealed jar and placed it into an oven preheated to 250f. It took 10 min to reach 200f and a full 20 min to obtain the ambient 250f of the oven. Following the procedure outlined above, I placed an oven thermometer in the preheated open jar along with my prepared material and sealed and quickly returned it to the preheated oven. It only took 7 min for the thermometer to return to the targeted 250f. I'm still happy with 250f/45 min.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Expect the Unexpected
Yes, CBDA is harder to decarb than THCA!
I knew there was a difference. I just had no idea how much.

The THC content is a lot higher than advertised. I think I can work with it by using the raw material and adding an amount of the decarbed material to equal a one percent addition of THC. Then, I can do a cold alcohol extraction. Once it is a concentrate I can make any strength of caps that I want.

I have a lot of time, temperature and pressure notes on these two runs. There are some things that are not matching the math. It is going to take me a while to sort out what is happening.

The good news it the lab is interested in what I/we are doing. This time they ask if they could keep some of the second run. I said, "Sure".

Without a near full decarb of CBDA to CBD, I decided to hold off on the terpene tests. I am going to put a Thunderstruck from another seed into flower or a CBD clone that I have some tests on her mother already.
I never know

This is from a run that developed an air leak at about 4psi. I decided to keep going with the run at some higher temperatures than I had planed. When I have the numbers compiled I will post them.

Next Test Next Test Next Test Next Test
This is a run that I held the upper oil bath in 230-240f range. With an instant read meat probe, holding the tip on the chamber under the oil's surface, the reading dropped 3-4 degrees depending how near the top or bottom of the oil the probe was. There is a lot of heat lost from the metal that is not submerged.

Hey my friend

I went back about 7 pages...lol.. now this thunderstruck, did u grow it? What are it's strain history? What is the claimed CBD/THC ratio


I'm a big CBD guy love the testing ya did

 

[SweetSue]

I'll post the steps and results later, but looking at as it's cooling in the jar, should the oil be a very, very dark green?

Also, for about 100ml yield, how much lecithin should I add, 1tsp?

Back to the darkside

I see you figured out the lecithin. Sorry to miss that greatwolf. I stick to 1 tablespoon to a cup, and I let myself go over without fretting. The lecithin is a valuable nutrient in its own right.

Have you given up the dehydrator method you were using in the Low and Slow thread? I know that TheMadDabber has a dehydrator and is very close to his first harvest so I'd like to pass any new info along to him. I'm pretty sure he can't take over his fridge, for marriage preservation reasons .

I use the dehydrator when the fridge isn't available or I need the harvest dried and ready to go in three days. I haven't been able to determine any loss of potency between dehydrated and low and slo that causes me any alarm. I simply prefer the low and slo method. I'm certain it offers a finer end result, but not enough difference that I'd hesitate to use the dehydrator.

Copied from my Journal:

A little difficult to write this (that will teach me to follow Sue's example and lick the spoons ).

First, an update on drying techniques:

Freezing/Vacuum Drying - this produced a slightly drier product in the same short time. But did it also start curing the material? The reason I bring this up is the final color; it is not as apparent in the first photo below, but in the second you can clearly see it is closer to brown than the green of the other buds. The first day there were were 3 freezes, each for 2 hours. The second day there were 4 freezes - 2 hours, 90 minutes, 1 hour, and 2 hours. The last one it was left for several hours under vacuum before being hung in the rice bag.

Rice Jar Dehydrator - I'm concerned that terpenes are being absorbed by the rice because of a sealed system. The rice retained a strong smell.

Brown bag with rice - effective, simple, should work year round.

Here are the 4 buds:

I decided to go with 3 buds at, at 5.6 grams:

NOTE: BEFORE USING JARS IN A PRESSURE COOKER, ALWAYS CHECK THE JARS. THIS INCLUDES A VISUAL CHECK AND A BOILING WATER CHECK. POUR BOILING WATER INTO THE ROOM TEMPERATURE JAR TO THE TOP. IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE DOING THIS STEP YOU SHOULD NOT BE USING JARS IN A PRESSURE COOKER.

I'm not yelling. I just don't want anyone to miss that particular warning and say I should have warned them. I told you so, okay?

So on to the processing itself. I pulled apart the buds as old bear suggested and added 1/4 MCT oil. Since I do not have an immersion blender, I decided to blend in a small blender prior to heating. I scraped the mix out into a pint jar and loosely screwed on the lid. I placed the jar on the wire trivet in IP, and added 2 cups of water. I set it to Manual, High Pressure, 115 minutes (this is 5 minutes longer than Sue recommended, but I figured the the glass I'm using is less conductive than the metal she is and the additional time wouldn't hurt).

When the cycle was done, I released the pressure, took the jar out, and allowed it to cool to room temperature (this was to conserve any volatile compounds, allowing them to re-condense). I then filtered through 4 layers of cheesecloth and a coffee filter. To complete things, I added 1 tsp sunflower lecithin.

This gave me enough oil for 100 "00" caps and a 15ml syringe full. Now we'll just have to see how effective it is.

Back to the darkside

You got 100 caps? Oh greatwolf.... that brought tears to my eyes. This is the next step in your regimen's evolution. Mark this day on your calendar.

A couple of updates on the decarb process. I placed an oven thermometer in an empty sealed jar and placed it into an oven preheated to 250f. It took 10 min to reach 200f and a full 20 min to obtain the ambient 250f of the oven. Following the procedure outlined above, I placed an oven thermometer in the preheated open jar along with my prepared material and sealed and quickly returned it to the preheated oven. It only took 7 min for the thermometer to return to the targeted 250f. I'm still happy with 250f/45 min.

Thank you so much for sharing this. I have a couple ounces of different chemovars I'm setting aside for a CCO run. I could use some of that for this instead. I'll probably evaporate the ethanol off, but then again...... to go through all that and then sacrifice the terpenes..... Ok, I won't evaporate. Tinctures are a method I haven't really explored. The alcohol burns and VG doesn't extract efficiently enough for me. Maybe all I need is to adapt to the alcohol.

Anyway, I'll be certain to make a batch this next run. I'm planning for this weekend.

Had to give you reps for that.

I agree with your thoughts on decarb. Now that we're learning of the medicinal values of other terpenes, and in particular the acid cannabinoids I stopped being so concerned about total decarb. This work here is still important to me though, because there are times when a more complete decarb is desirable, and I just love the energy you all bring to finding the best ways to do that and still have a terpene-rich medication.

Thank you all for the effort and joy you put into this project.

 

[Phenoman]

oh thank your soul Sweet Sue.
I have been dabbling with edibles and am now ready to take it to the next level.
I am basically building my entire remaining life fighting as a cannabis proponent for ailments of all sorts and edibles along with the terpene 'entourage' effect there is a huge amount to be explored.
I will be reading and catching up but just wanted to thank you for getting things going!

 

[Canyon]

Hey my friend

I went back about 7 pages...lol.. now this thunderstruck, did u grow it? What are it's strain history? What is the claimed CBD/THC ratio


I'm a big CBD guy love the testing ya did

Yes, I grew it. It is one I flowered early to get an idea what I had. There is some question as to weather the seeds are actually Thunderstruck. The original order was confiscated by customs. The replacement came when all the seed banks were out of stock.

Thunderstruck is an ACDC X ACDC that is supposed to be 20 to 1 CBD. What is the difference? Is it entitled to it's own name?

I found some in a local dispensary that had tested 16% CBD and 6% for THC. I have not found any advertised for sale with less than 6%. It is still better than 2 to 1 CBD. I have another plant from another seed that can go into flower any time and, I think, 4 more seeds to try.

I never know

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Yes, I grew it. It is one I flowered early to get an idea what I had. There is some question as to weather the seeds are actually Thunderstruck. The original order was confiscated by customs. The replacement came when all the seed banks were out of stock.

Thunderstruck is an ACDC X ACDC that is supposed to be 20 to 1 CBD. What is the difference? Is it entitled to it's own name?

I found some in a local dispensary that had tested 16% CBD and 6% for THC. I have not found any advertised for sale with less than 6%. It is still better than 2 to 1 CBD. I have another plant from another seed that can go into flower any time and, I think, 4 more seeds to try.

I never know

I am growing ACDC right now, 4-5 weeks to go

The higher THC seems a bit off from true ACDC

Do u have bud pics of it , love to see it

 

[Canyon]

I am growing ACDC right now, 4-5 weeks to go

The higher THC seems a bit off from true ACDC

Do u have bud pics of it , love to see it

I don't Chris.

I can get you a picture of one in veggie and one as a teenager. I have the dry ice and Everclear extraction to post. I will add in a shot or two.

 

[SweetSue]

I don't Chris.

I can get you a picture of one in veggie and one as a teenager. I have the dry ice and Everclear extraction to post. I will add in a shot or two.

Made my heart skip a beat there Canyon. I'm really interested in this.

 

[Canyon]

This post has more pictures than I usually include. I am going to split it into two parts.

I started with 20 grams of 15-16% CBDA and 7% THCA dried raw total cannabinoid content of Thunderstruck. Then I added 9 grams of partly decarbed Thunderstruck with 3% CBD, 13% CBDA and 7% THC.

Trust me this is on topic. When I was a youngster my grandfather had a dairy farm and they used artificial breeding most of the time. The little swimmer things came in little sealed glass vials. They were kept in alcohol that was cooled with dry ice in an insulated box in a freezer. About once a week they would add a block or two and the kids would watch it "Make the alcohol boil."

So.... I said to myself "Why not make it really cold and add some real agitation."

The Everclear started at -20f and everything stayed in the cooler for about three hours.

Further cooling

After a few minutes

This is shortly after adding dry ice and the alcohol with the dry ice added.

I did 2 washes of about 5 minutes each and another short soak with the material in a screen by dipping it in and out for a final rinse. A stainless table knife worked well to keep the ice, alcohol and buds stirred up. I used an entire 750ml bottle. The jar has the second soak in it and the first is in the dish.

The last drops of soak 2

It turns out that alcohol soaks up CO2 better than soda pop. Both batches 'boiled' vigorously for a while when I poured it into the dish. This is after it settled down a lot.

That is all of the playing with dry ice pictures. I need to upload the second half of the show.

But first, a smoke break is called for.

 

[greatwolf]

Copied from my Journal:

Okay, here is my report:

First, based on the spreadsheet that old bear provided (back in November, I believe) and the specs from the breeders as well as cap capacity, the best case that I can hope for is that each "00" capsule would contain about 5.5 mg THC and 0.7 mg CBD. It is probably less, but gives a reference at least for comparison.

I did not take any separate CBD yesterday afternoon or last night, in order to reduce the number of variables.

I took the cap at 10:30PM and had a small piece of cheese as a snack. Might have felt a bit of a buzz around 11. One unusual effect was a tingling in the hyper-sensitive spot of my back. I can't call it painful, not even sure I would say uncomfortable. But definitely noticeable. I went to bed at 11:30. Slept for about 4 hours; this is longer than average by quite a bit - about once every 6 weeks or so. I was apparently awakened by the painful, shooting numbness in my leg, which is not unusual. [Pain level was around 6.] But it felt different and it is difficult to describe that difference. Further away? Yes, but that's not it. Muffled somehow? I'm really at a loss here for a description. And I was able to go back to sleep in about 10 minutes, which is unusual. I slept for a little over an hour, when it was nearly time for me to get up anyway to have breakfast with my wife. Normally, on a night like this, I would not have gotten back to sleep.

One last thing to note here: Something that I had not been aware of consciously until today is that I have a continuous tightness in my lower back. Not painful, not even really noticeable. Until this morning, when that spot was relaxed. That was noticeable. Even with the the spasms still continuing, those muscles had relaxed.

Now there are several caveats here:

This was one time.
This effect could be at least partially psychosomatic (wanting to feel better) - but we cannot discount that effect either.
I had been licking the spoons earlier.
While cold (which my back dislikes), the weather is stable, no immediate storms.

I have been vaping CBD during the day to manage the spasm, and it is finally beginning to subside. My plan is to again use the cap without CBD tonight and see if last night was a fluke or repeatable. Or if there will be ups and downs (most likely).

Sue asked if I would only be taking the the caps orally. The short answer is, initially yes. I want to limit the variables and gradually change things as they stabilize and I'm sure I know what the effects are. I'll want to add Tangerine Dream caps for daytime relief before changing dosing methods around. And probably adding CBD back in, as necessary.

Cheers from the darkside

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Thanx for the reps Sue and good luck on your tincture attempt. I'm really partial to ethanol extraction because of the efficiency as well as versatility. While I fear there's probably a loss of terpenes even with natural (no heat) evaporation, it's a pretty simple process to do a quick transfer to whatever carrier you wish. An added benefit is the fact it leaves behind all the yucky tasting waxes, chlorophyll and other nasties that can be overwhelming in edibles. I recently did a transfer to butter and used that for some no cook buckeyes that have absolutely no foreign taste of any kind.

I, also, have found VG a very difficult extraction medium. I've had decent results doing a transfer if I first dissolve tha cco in a small amount of ethanol and then combine that with VG. I've had separation problems trying to combine cco directly into the VG for some reason.

 

[Canyon]

At first I did not want to have a fan on the extract but I did not want to wait forever for it to dry. I decided to add a fan later. I can't see where it did any harm.

It does not look like there is much sediment in this but there was.

Filtering took about an hour.

The darker gob is what I held back from the coffee filter. The lighter is what the filter trapped.

Together wet.

After drying, it had no oily feeling and not much taste.

The beginning of drying.

I have a few more pictures of the drying for the next post.

Back in a bit