Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Canyon]

It is starting to act like oil.

Near dry

It is hard to tell but there is a grove in the glass near the edge. To the left, the milky white is about three drops of water. If you are making caps you want to make sure that all of it is gone before filling caps.

This is 1.5g of what was extracted. I have not collected all of it yet, so I don't have a final weight yet. It looks rough here. It is not. It is frozen and somewhat crystallized from scraping it up.

This is the same oil.

This what is left.

The oil is very sappy and hard to work with, even frozen. It seriously sticks to everything. I put some shrink wrap over what is still in the dish and returned it to the freezer for a day or two. It should harden some.

It has a very acetic pine taste. It also has a slow to come on burn like chilies that can be felt on the back of your tong an hour later from licking your fingers.

I will probably think of more to add latter but for now,
I never know.

 

[SweetSue]

Guys..... I'm a little overwhelmed with admiration.

Canyon, I'm loving this with the dry ice. Such simplicity. I'm gonna have to give this a go at some point.

greatwolf..... Geez... I call that significant. I'm anticipating another remarkable recounting of pain management. My late husband used to describe the effect as knowing the pain was there, but not caring about it. He said it was like it was off in a distance, very similar to your description.

Best of luck on sleeping again tonight.

 

[AKgramma]

Guys..... I'm a little overwhelmed with admiration.


greatwolf..... Geez... I call that significant. I'm anticipating another remarkable recounting of pain management. My late husband used to describe the effect as knowing the pain was there, but not caring about it. He said it was like it was off in a distance, very similar to your description.

Best of luck on sleeping again tonight.

Like an out of body sensation?

 

[Canyon]

I don't Chris.

I can get you a picture of one in veggie and one as a teenager. I have the dry ice and Everclear extraction to post. I will add in a shot or two.

I did take a few. They looked terrible. Not enough flash to override the HPS.

The plants don't really stand out among the others. The ones I have are healthy looking with average size for there age.

I will be mixing soil and up potting for the next few days. I will have the Thunderstrucks out of the grow room and can get some better pictures the. I will get some leaf shots too.

 

[Canyon]

Up potted Thunderstruck

Clones

 

[InTheShed]

Up potted Thunderstruck

Is there a reason you let it grow straight up like that rather than topping it at some point, like y'know, 4 feet lower??

 

[Kicknitup1]

Thanx for the reps Sue and good luck on your tincture attempt. I'm really partial to ethanol extraction because of the efficiency as well as versatility. While I fear there's probably a loss of terpenes even with natural (no heat) evaporation, it's a pretty simple process to do a quick transfer to whatever carrier you wish. An added benefit is the fact it leaves behind all the yucky tasting waxes, chlorophyll and other nasties that can be overwhelming in edibles. I recently did a transfer to butter and used that for some no cook buckeyes that have absolutely no foreign taste of any kind.

I, also, have found VG a very difficult extraction medium. I've had decent results doing a transfer if I first dissolve tha cco in a small amount of ethanol and then combine that with VG. I've had separation problems trying to combine cco directly into the VG for some reason.

Are you using 151 or 190 proof? maybe it was said earlier...
I would like to talk to you further about this.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Canyon, You are DA MAN!

 

[Kicknitup1]

Canyon, et al, Is everyone in agreement that you lose most of the terpenes with Ethanol extraction no matter what?

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Are you using 151 or 190 proof? maybe it was said earlier...
I would like to talk to you further about this.

I use 190 everclear, kickn. I simply did an ethanol extraction using my orange dragon process (although a traditional QWET would probably work just as well since methinx a lot of the terpenes are lost in the evaporation process anyway). I begin with 7 grams of material and 3 oz of ethanol. At the end of the extraction process, straining and filtering, I do a natural evaporation under a small fan. I live in an oppressively humid environment and ethanol being highly hygroscopic, I have serious problems with water separation toward the end. My only alternative is to do a total evap and add a small amount of clean ethanol back to the evaporated cco. I've never measured the amount of ethanol I use for reconstitution but probably about 1/2 oz will do the job. Most of the time simply adding the ethanol and stirring a bit will do the job but occasionally I've had to aid the process with a little heat. After I'm sure of complete dissolution, I add a couple of ounces of VG. I usually pop it into my oven @160 for about 5 min but I actually don't think this is necessary. It seems to mix totally almost immediately with just a little agitation.

I've only used this concoction in an oral spray bottle, as a tincture to add to my morning coffee and caps. I've never found any separation but do always shake it a bit before use just as a precaution. With the ethanol content in the final product, I'm not sure if this would be suitable for vaping. I've never tried it but I feel the solution would still be stable if you boiled off the small amount of ethanol with a little heat.

If I've missed anything or you have any questions let me know.

Good luck
BCDD

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Canyon, et al, Is everyone in agreement that you lose most of the terpenes with Ethanol extraction no matter what?

No, but this is little more than supposition on my part. The principles of the commercial distillation process of isolating terpenes involves boiling off the molecules from the plant material with heat and reclamation with the introduction of a chillant. From start to finish, this process is done in a sealed environment to avoid loss to ambient atmosphere.

I feel there is assuredly some occurrences of oxidation in the presence of heat resulting in morphed isomers and transition to terpenoids BUT I've failed to find evidence that these mutations stray far in effectiveness from the original molecules.

I've attempted to mimic these principles used in the commercial extraction of terpenes in my orange dragon process. I can, however, only offer anecdotal evidence of the efficacy of this process by virtue of comparisons of processing the same material using the conventional QWET method and a totally closed container method from decarbing to extraction. I can aver that there is definitely an added dimension to the final results of the closed container method but cannot, with absolution, Attribute this to terpene retention since I don't have access to lab analysis in my intolerant state.

Just an opinion from an inquisitive old man.

BCDD

 

[Canyon]

Is there a reason you let it grow straight up like that rather than topping it at some point, like y'know, 4 feet lower??

It is just evolved. I try a lot of things. One answer would be, because that's where the lights are.

New Mexico only allows 4 plants in flower. That means that some of the plants have to have good yields. Having the stalks about index finger size when they go into flower works well for me. My flower room is not much larger than a big tent. It is only 4 X 6. About 10-20% of what I flower are in whisky barrels. About half will be in #10 and#15 pots. The rest will be smaller plants that get flowered because there is a space or I need to clear something out of the vegge room.

I don't train every plant the same. some don't even get topped. I can have plants that finish up to 6 feet above the floor. I try for a canape of 3-4 feet and a depth of 12-16 inches, sometimes with a few lower branches for the large plants. The vegge room stays crowded so there is not much side growth while the plants are short. Most of what there is gets cut off.

 

[InTheShed]

It is just evolved. I try a lot of things. One answer would be, because that's where the lights are.
New Mexico only allows 4 plants in flower. That means that some of the plants have to have good yields. Having the stalks about index finger size when they go into flower works well for me. My flower room is not much larger than a big tent. It is only 4 X 6. About 10-20% of what I flower are in whisky barrels. About half will be in #10 and#15 pots. The rest will be smaller plants that get flowered because there is a space or I need to clear something out of the vegge room.
I don't train every plant the same. some don't even get topped. I can have plants that finish up to 6 feet above the floor. I try for a canape of 3-4 feet and a depth of 12-16 inches, sometimes with a few lower branches for the large plants. The vegge room stays crowded so there is not much side growth while the plants are short. Most of what there is gets cut off.

Thanks Canyon! And smart of NM to have a law about plants in flower vs just plants. CA is six plants, regardless of their stage in the growing process. That means if you're trying to clone then you're probably already out of compliance!

 

[Canyon]

Canyon, et al, Is everyone in agreement that you lose most of the terpenes with Ethanol extraction no matter what?

I don't think it is true. There may be a lot lost if you boil off the alcohol. The extract I made is very sappy. I would think it would be terpenes and the lack of heat causing it to not set up.


I never know

 

[Kicknitup1]

"Just an opinion from an inquisitive old man."

BCDD

From one inquisitive old man to another, remember what Dylan said- "he not busy being born is busy dying". When I stop learning I may as well be dead.

Thanks for the answer. I was thinking I read somewhere that Ethanol does not do a good job absorbing terpenes. I really need to find a better way to organize my research so that when I find additional info I can add or correct. Now, like a lot of you, I'm chasing so many different variables that I can't remember all the answers I have found.

 

[Kicknitup1]

I don't think it is true. There may be a lot lost if you boil off the alcohol. The extract I made is very sappy. I would think it would be terpenes and the lack of heat causing it to not set up.


I never know

Thanks Canyon. It is perhaps the water content that is grabbing terpenes because they are definitely soluble in water. Using 190 proof, maybe @ only 5% water, it's not much of a problem. Everyone is chilling the alcohol to (?) prevent it from absorbing the chlorophyll & such (?). So, to clarify that principle, is chilling to cut down on the alcohol picking up the undesirables OR is it to cut down on the water content picking up the undesirables????

 

[Kicknitup1]

Has anyone noticed that when you decarb CCO (maybe not rosen) the texture dramatically changes? It may have started out brittle shatter but becomes absolute honey texture. BTW, oh, what a pain that becomes if changing containers is necessary. So I decarb in the container I'm going to mix in.

 

[Kicknitup1]

I use 190 everclear, kickn. I simply did an ethanol extraction using my orange dragon process (although a traditional QWET would probably work just as well since methinx a lot of the terpenes are lost in the evaporation process anyway). I begin with 7 grams of material and 3 oz of ethanol. At the end of the extraction process, straining and filtering, I do a natural evaporation under a small fan. I live in an oppressively humid environment and ethanol being highly hygroscopic, I have serious problems with water separation toward the end. My only alternative is to do a total evap and add a small amount of clean ethanol back to the evaporated cco. I've never measured the amount of ethanol I use for reconstitution but probably about 1/2 oz will do the job. Most of the time simply adding the ethanol and stirring a bit will do the job but occasionally I've had to aid the process with a little heat. After I'm sure of complete dissolution, I add a couple of ounces of VG. I usually pop it into my oven @160 for about 5 min but I actually don't think this is necessary. It seems to mix totally almost immediately with just a little agitation.

I've only used this concoction in an oral spray bottle, as a tincture to add to my morning coffee and caps. I've never found any separation but do always shake it a bit before use just as a precaution. With the ethanol content in the final product, I'm not sure if this would be suitable for vaping. I've never tried it but I feel the solution would still be stable if you boiled off the small amount of ethanol with a little heat.

If I've missed anything or you have any questions let me know.

Good luck
BCDD

Throwing out some random observations related to this- CCO does not dissolve in 151 proof for crap. If you make it, you have probably overdone it with heat. Same with VG & PG. Now those, you can make happen but it's hard. Saw Ruffhouse do it with help from Cat Scientific. Even Cat had trouble. They finally made it happen by multiple heat & blend cycles....and a serious blender (homogenizer). ...Going back & forth here between ejuice & a stripper for general use here..... I resolved it by adding 1 ml of EVOO to give the CCO a better place to go. It worked but did take several blends. BUT 2 days later there was NO separation. I don't like it but that is a solution for edibles BUT NOT FOR VAPING! By the same token, lets just take a moment for a CAUTION

I hear people say all the time that you don't have to worry about Butane cause it evaporates at around 30f. True, but you will NOT get it all without a vacuum setup. I will let you decide if that is close enough. And, back to me adding EVOO...well ya can't smoke that!

 

[Kicknitup1]

Ejuice

GRRR. Again, CCO does not want to dissolve in VG and/or PG even with heat. It will go but I don't like the prolonged heat. I think the famous retail additives also use PG200 & PG400. I may try it out of frustration but I don't like venturing that far into the chemical world.

 

[greatwolf]

Ejuice

GRRR. Again, CCO does not want to dissolve in VG and/or PG even with heat. It will go but I don't like the prolonged heat. I think the famous retail additives also use PG200 & PG400. I may try it out of frustration but I don't like venturing that far into the chemical world.

I'm hesitant to write this reply here but have decided to do so after some thought.

Some vendors, having the same problems you describe, are using MCT as the vape carrier for THC/CBD. Yes, we all know you should not vape oil under any circumstances as the risk of pneumonia is too high. But, according to some research, MCT is the exception to that rule and why these vendors are using it.

With that said, my concern becomes the reliability of the MCT producer; both for anyone wishing to make their own as well as the above mentioned vendors. If any long chains make it through the process, the risk is still there.

So whether you want to consider this route, or purchase a vape product containing MCT, be sure to do your own research and make an informed decision.

Back to the darkside