Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[SweetSue]

More recently the Dutch ran tests and determined that the best time for decarb was 110 C for 110 minutes. We've recommended that in the study hall for the past couple years.

That GW study broke it down more precisely.

High CBD chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 min @ 120 C (248 F)

Or: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 30 min @ 140 C (284 F)

For a large batch (> 4 oz): 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 55 - 90 min


High THC chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 - 120 min @ 105 C (221 F)

Or: 15 - 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 110 C (230 F) for 110 min Note the similarity with the Dutch findings.

Large batch (> 4 oz): 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 45 - 55 min

 

[SweetSue]

I'm gonna have to dig that material up and double check those THC times and temps, but I remember being confused by them when I initially read the paper. I have a difficult time reconciling that 60 min @ 248 F for the THC batch.

Edit: Yep..... Had that very wrong. I've made corrections, and now I'll go back and quadruple-check.

 

[SweetSue]

Sorry for the confusion guys. I sure am glad you love me.

 

[overlord]

Sorry for the confusion guys. I sure am glad you love me.

 

[Canyon]

Thanks for the input Sue.
I have missed most of your threads. I just cannot keep up. You soak up knowledge like a sponge. Then you put it to paper so clearly and fast.

Thanks for checking in and for what you do.
Best

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks for the input Sue.
I have missed most of your threads. I just cannot keep up. You soak up knowledge like a sponge. Then you put it to paper so clearly and fast.

Thanks for checking in and for what you do.
Best

Canyon.... You guys inspire me, and I'm having so much fun learning I feel like I stumbled into a student's heaven.

Sometimes I can't keep up with myself either.

 

[Canyon]

This may work. It is the numbers for run 2.
Test
I never know

Time Down	Time	Pressure	Upper Oil	Lower Oil	Extra
	0	0.00	230	240
	5	2.00	220	241
	10	3.00	222	249
	20	5.00	222	246
	25	6.00	224	252
	33	8.00	228	248
	41	10.00	230	250
	50	12.00	233	248
	61	14.00	234	245
	87	16.00	233	240
	116	16.75	234	243
	121	17.00	234	243
	126	17.00	240	256
	145	17.80	240	252
0	165	18.75	241	253	OFF
4	169	18.50	236	238
14	179	18.00	224	215
22	187	17.00	214	196
28	293	16.00	203	180
33	198	15.00	194	171
41	201	14.00	186	162
47	212	13.00	177	154
50	215	12.00	170	147
56	221	11.00	160	138
180	345	5.60	75	75	Final

 

[Canyon]

Well that looks rather clean.
Both runs were ten grams each. in a 340mm chamber.

I will be working on the rest of what I have throughout the day, between chores, errands and maybe a few more hits.

Best

 

[greatwolf]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

This may work. It is the numbers for run 2.
Test
I never know

Time Down	Time	Pressure	Upper Oil	Lower Oil	Extra
	0	0.00	230	240
	5	2.00	220	241
	10	3.00	222	249
	20	5.00	222	246
	25	6.00	224	252
	33	8.00	228	248
	41	10.00	230	250
	50	12.00	233	248
	61	14.00	234	245
	87	16.00	233	240
	116	16.75	234	243
	121	17.00	234	243
	126	17.00	240	256
	145	17.80	240	252
0	165	18.75	241	253	OFF
4	169	18.50	236	238
14	179	18.00	224	215
22	187	17.00	214	196
28	293	16.00	203	180
33	198	15.00	194	171
41	201	14.00	186	162
47	212	13.00	177	154
50	215	12.00	170	147
56	221	11.00	160	138
180	345	5.60	75	75	Final

From the data you posted and the studies previously posted, that should work, right?

Cheers from the darkside

 

[Canyon]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention

From the data you posted and the studies previously posted, that should work, right?

Cheers from the darkside

Er,.....The short answer is yes for THC, no for CBD and we don't have tests for terpenes. Another consideration is the actual inside chamber temperature. It is going to be less. I don't know how much.

I have another post I am working on that has more pressure data and more questions.

I never know

 

[Canyon]

This is the calculation for the number of moles of water vapor it would take to produce 5.9psi at 70f in a chamber with a volume of 339cmm. It translates to .1015g.

Step-by-step solution:
Converting pressure to SI units.
P = 40679.0663 Pa
Converting volume to SI units.
V = 0.000339 m³
Converting temperature to SI units.
T = 294.26111111111 K
R = 8.3144621 J/(mol*K)
Computing number of moles using the selected equation.
n = 0.0056364238741574

Don't be that impressed. There is a calculator for everything.

This page has lots with options if anyone wants to play with some numbers.

This is the calculated co2 pressures for run 2. They are based 3% converted CBD and 7% THC.

Temp	Pressure
70	2.855
100	3.017
150	3.286
200	3.555
230	3.717
250	3.825

Back to the H2O pressures, at 250f and 37psi there would be 0.48g of vapor. These are some numbers that were present in test 1. They are not posted yet.

Both runs lost 0.4 grams on a scale that weighs in 0.1 increments.

The decarb accounts for 0.12g of the 0.4g of weight loss. Another 0.1 of water vapor is possible at the final 5.9 psi.

That leaves 0.27g plus or minus 0.1 as loss. That can be accounted for from condensation on the chamber walls and what was in it. Other possibilities are errors, terpene and aromatic loss.

I never know

 

[greatwolf]

More recently the Dutch ran tests and determined that the best time for decarb was 110 C for 110 minutes. We've recommended that in the study hall for the past couple years.

That GW study broke it down more precisely.

High CBD chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 min @ 120 C (248 F)

Or: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 30 min @ 140 C (284 F)

For a large batch (> 4 oz): 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 55 - 90 min


High THC chemovar: 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 60 - 120 min @ 105 C (221 F)

Or: 15 - 30 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 110 C (230 F) for 110 min Note the similarity with the Dutch findings.

Large batch (> 4 oz): 15 min @ 105 C (221 F) then 145 C (293 F) for 45 - 55 min

The Instant Pot manual that I have says that for low pressure the temperature is between 110 and 112 while for high pressure it is between 115 and 118. Given the slight difference in temperatures and the fact that the material will be in a mason jar with the lid on (but not screwed on tight, same as if canning), I believe it is best to go with the high pressure for 110 minutes. Any opinions, suggestions, etc.?

Also, should I decarb the buds, or break up the material first?

Still at least a day or two from this step in my first oil making adventure.

Cheers from the darkside

 

[Oldbear]

I get great results crumbling the buds into bits with fingers, then declaring in the oil (as opposed to a dry decarb)

 

[greatwolf]

I get great results crumbling the buds into bits with fingers, then declaring in the oil (as opposed to a dry decarb)

If I were to do it that way (in 1 step instead of 2), how long would you suggest I run the cycle? The max setting is 240 minutes, but I could reset and run more if necessary.

 

[Blazinjones]

Hi guys have a batch of popcorn buds and trim ready to make oil but I was wondering what is the best way to decarb my bud also what is the best type of oil to use i have some almond and Grapeseed oil will either of those work?

 

[Canyon]

Speaking of pressure cookers
Just thinking,
Non electric cookers work on steam pressure controlled by a weight. Electric cookers have a safety valve but it does not act as a control valve. It does not vent during normal operation.

Electric units would have to be regulated by a thermostat. That would remove the need to compensate for altitude. Or, I could be wrong.

I have only run one batch in a pressure cooker. There is some info about it on this thread somewhere. I took a quick look and did not find it yet.

I am finishing the filtering of an ethyl and dry ice extraction now from the CBD plant. I took a few pictures and will add a few of it dry. More when it is finished.

I never know

 

[SweetSue]

Hi guys have a batch of popcorn buds and trim ready to make oil but I was wondering what is the best way to decarb my bud also what is the best type of oil to use i have some almond and Grapeseed oil will either of those work?

Will you be using a pressure cooker Jones? Somehow I don't think this is your intent. Regular decarb is 110 minutes at 230-235 degrees F. That should give you nearly complete decarb for THC.

As to oil choices, either of those will work. We tend to use the grape seed for topicals because it absorbs into the skin better, and almond is a favorite of massage therapists for the same reason, but they'll work for edible oils as well.

Popcorn buds are notoriously potent Jones. My first overdose of THC, and to date my most serious OD event, (Wow! What a ride that was. ) was a pan of brownies made with 14 grams of just sugar leaves. Hmmmm..... I have that much in a jar curing. Those were the strongest batch I've ever made. Lol! Can you hear the temptation to do another batch?

 

[SweetSue]

Speaking of pressure cookers
Just thinking,
Non electric cookers work on steam pressure controlled by a weight. Electric cookers have a safety valve but it does not act as a control valve. It does not vent during normal operation.

Electric units would have to be regulated by a thermostat. That would remove the need to compensate for altitude. Or, I could be wrong.

I have only run one batch in a pressure cooker. There is some info about it on this thread somewhere. I took a quick look and did not find it yet.

I am finishing the filtering of an ethyl and dry ice extraction now from the CBD plant. I took a few pictures and will add a few of it dry. More when it is finished.

I never know

According to Mother Earth News:

"For every 1,000 feet above 2,000-foot elevation, you must increase cooking time by 5 percent. So if your pressure cooker recipe indicates that you should cook something at high pressure for 25 minutes and you live at 6,000 feet above sea level, you should actually keep cooking at high pressure for 30 minutes."(Nov 29, 2011)

 

[Blazinjones]

Will you be using a pressure cooker Jones? Somehow I don't think this is your intent. Regular decarb is 110 minutes at 230-235 degrees F. That should give you nearly complete decarb for THC.

As to oil choices, either of those will work. We tend to use the grape seed for topicals because it absorbs into the skin better, and almond is a favorite of massage therapists for the same reason, but they'll work for edible oils as well.

Popcorn buds are notoriously potent Jones. My first overdose of THC, and to date my most serious OD event, (Wow! What a ride that was. ) was a pan of brownies made with 14 grams of just sugar leaves. Hmmmm..... I have that much in a jar curing. Those were the strongest batch I've ever made. Lol! Can you hear the temptation to do another batch?

Lmao i so can tell ur ready for another batch hahaha n oh no OD what?!?! Hope u r/were ok by the sounds of it u r but yea im guna be also doing a batch of biobombs yay.

 

[SweetSue]

The Instant Pot manual that I have says that for low pressure the temperature is between 110 and 112 while for high pressure it is between 115 and 118. Given the slight difference in temperatures and the fact that the material will be in a mason jar with the lid on (but not screwed on tight, same as if canning), I believe it is best to go with the high pressure for 110 minutes. Any opinions, suggestions, etc.?

Also, should I decarb the buds, or break up the material first?

Still at least a day or two from this step in my first oil making adventure.

Cheers from the darkside

I've been having great success with high pressure at 110 minutes (1 hr, 50 minutes). My Instant Pot goes to that setting by default now. I decarb in the pressure cooker. My hot oil bath check found this was giving me close to what I estimate to be about 80-90% decarb. I don't concern myself with total decarb, now that we know that THCA will perform some of the inflammatory relief functions CBD does. I find I'm very comfortable with a diversified cannabinoid profile in my oils.

I use a pot-in-pot method with my Instant Pot. I purchased it to make FHO, but I'm not happy with the oil quality made like that, so I'm now drying buds low and slo and then making a regular infused with those buds. I feel confident that I'm getting very close to FHO quality this way.