First time grow CFL growth stopped

I'm not having any luck at all with my original plants, there all clinging to life, the leaves are turning yellow/brown crisp from the bottom of the plant up. I'm thinking on cutting my losses focusing on my new seedlings. And moving my grow out of my dirty dirt floor basement into the spare room's closet. I don't know if the roots are rotting or if I damaged them or what, or if it's the soil there in, but it's not working
 
It's been 3 days since watering, I'm gonna let them dry completely out before watering again, I'll have more room in the closet and better access to fresh air getting to them, I've got lights in the closet checking out how the environment is gonna be, humidy is high in it so far. The lights are off now, in a few hours I'll add some pictures so you can see what's Goin on... I'm gonna monitor the closet without plants a few days before I make the move.
 
I would definitely not give up on them and do like Emilya says...learn from these and carry that knowledge to the next round.

If you are seeing your leaves dying from the bottom up, it may be because you are letting them dry out too much between rounds. Since you switched to smaller containers, they could be drying out quicker and suffering from under-watering each time. I don't like to use a set schedule when I water since it's always changing for me. I always use the lift and check method. Over time I've been able to know just when they need watering by their weight.
 
Is there anything it could be besides over water/under watering?

in an earlier post we told you it was most likely overwatering by watering too often, too big of a container and using nutes. You corrected one of those to my knowledge... I am still not certain that you understand the lift method and suspect that you are still watering too often. If you are still giving nutes to young plants that dont need them, especially to struggling plants that dont need them... that is also part of the problem. Keep practicing... get this down on these first plants so that you can get a better start next time.
 
I just went back and read this from the beginning again. You had a lot of changes for plants that are only 5 weeks old. I would guess that's where a good deal of their stress is coming from.

If you're seeing just the tips yellowing, I'm sure it's from adding nutrients too soon. You're seeing a good indication of nutrient burn, but it looks like you are correcting that. It doesn't look too serious from your pictures, but nutrients this early in the game is probably what led to it. Whenever I feed, I lean towards the weak side and go up as the plants respond. As you learn your strain and nutrients, this will become more instinctive.

Lift your pots every day. Get an idea of what a freshly watered pot feels like and what a dry pot feels like. You should be in your garden every day anyway, so this is a good practice to get into. You'll know if you should feed in a day or two or right now. Again, over time this will become instinctive.

Read your new leaves. Don't try to adjust what you're doing and expect your old growth to change much. You'll see some changes, but don't expect those tips to change. There was an old soap commercial that said, "There's a new you coming every day". Treat your plants the same.

And don't give up on these. I just went through my album and found a picture of basically a nub left with new growth starting. That plant eventually grew 3 feet tall and packed.

And speaking of which, where's those pics? :)
 
20151214_0427281.jpg
 
Ok I've been just feeling an inch or so down in the soil to determine if they need water. I can start lifting them to check, what exactly am I looking for when I lift, is there a rule of thumb like medium being dry so many inches from the top? And I've not gave any nutrients since I started this thread, just ph balanced tap water around 6.5... last 3 days I've not seen any new growth, just the leaves yellowing, and turning crisp on old growth, my newest growth are still green and healthy looking, I'm just waiting it out now. When I re- pot this next time I'm gonna try weighing my pots dry, and saturated use that method to help me get the hang of how often they need water...
 
I did remove the led bulb I originally had mixed in there with them too, @ first I had 2 65 watt 3500k cfls and a led that I started the plants on, then I removed the led and added 2 23 watt 2700k bulbs and 2 23 watt 6500k... That's the lights I'm using now. FYI.... changed pots, quite giving nutes, started checking ph, changed light spectrum, and moved them to a closet are the changes I'd made.
 
Jon, thank you for the recent picture. Clearly this picture shows a plant being watered too often, and I would say based on my experience, that this is the major problem that you have. I really like your idea of bringing a scale in to weigh your containers, and from that experiment you will learn a lot about how much water is in your container at all points during the wet/dry cycle.

The sticking your finger in the top of the soil and trying to figure out whether to water or not, that is how you grow tomatoes, outside, in the ground. It is not how a container grow works, especially for a weed. Your finger sticking in the top of the soil tells you ZERO about what is happening at the bottom of the container... no matter how far you stick your finger in. As it turns out, the very very bottom of your container, where the big tap roots of a weed reside, is the most important place in that container of soil, and not the top where you have been basing your watering decisions on. Those bottom roots need oxygen every wet/dry cycle, and if they don't get it, they start to shut down. The leaf damage that you are seeing is a direct result of the plant no longer being able to supply all of its nutritional needs, because its biggest pipeline, those very bottom roots, are in trouble. Weeds are not tomatoes, and they do not like being watered too much, or being given nutrients when they cant use them... these are weeds, and they thrive in a bit of adversity... it is what they do.

Along with the above described symptom, you also have a very wrinkled and downward drooping presentation of all of your leaves. Your leaves are attempting to increase their surface area with the crinkled swollen look, so that they can evaporate water faster, trying to rid themselves of the flood at their toes. A healthy plant will lift those leaves up to the light, and they will not be all crinkled looking... they will be flat. This look of the leaves is classic, and as soon as I saw your picture I knew that watering too often was the problem. I also do not at all agree with your optimistic assessment that your new growth looks green and healthy... it looks a little yellow and unhealthy to me.

So you have been advised to use the lift method. Let me describe it for you. Take a container just like what you are using for your plant, and fill it with fresh dry soil right out of the bag. Lift it, and weigh it. This is how you want your plant's container to feel like before you water the next time. Using the scale may confuse you a bit, and realize that the scale can "see" a bit more of the water than you can "see" using the lift method, so don't go completely crazy with the scale, insisting on dry weight. It is a closed container system and it will retain a bit of moisture, and also because of capillary action, even though the rest of the container is dry, in between the roots and between the roots and the container sides, never will completely dry out. When you water by weight, get down to about 5-10% of the wet weight, and you should be good. When you lift it, you will not be able to tell much of a difference between that and the dry container of soil.

With damaged roots, it is going to take a lot longer than the 2-3 days that you have been giving them, to dry out the container. I would guess that the first few times you do this correctly, it may take 4 or 5 days to dry them out. As the roots recover however, this time between waterings will steadily decrease, and there will come a day when your plants are able to suck all the water you can give them up, in 24 hours. When you find that you are needing to water that often, it will be time to up-pot to the next bigger sized container and repeat this entire process.

Lastly, lets talk about the actual watering. It is impossible to overwater by giving too much water at any one time. It is actually your goal to water slowly, giving the soil time to absorb the water like a sponge, and you should attempt each time to "fill" that soil up with as much water as you can get it to hold, where any extra water will simply flow out of the bottom drainage holes. I even come back about a half hour after watering, and I water a second time, just to make sure that I have filled any void areas in that root ball, with good fresh water.
I weighed a container of dry soil, watered it as described here, and then weighed it again. I then put an empty cup on my scale, and filled it to achieve the weight of the water that I had added to my plant's cup. I was amazed when I learned that a good soil can hold up to 2/3 of its volume in water... the water vastly outweighing the soil. This is how much water was in my cup, and how much is suspended in solution when you saturate your container:
DSCF4779-fixed.png


That my friend is a lot of water for such a tiny space, indeed all of the empty space in that cup fills with water when properly done. It then becomes the task of the plant to use all that water, and your task to wait until she has done so, before you fill her up again.

This seems to be the hardest thing for new growers of weeds to do... to be patient, and wait for however long it takes to dry out the bottom roots. If you put your plant in too large of a container and properly saturate the soil, it is very easy to drown a plant, because it could take a week or more to use all the water held in the bottom of the container, and by that time the top of the plant's root system will die because it has been dry for the better part of a week. Big containers kill weeds... so that is why we recommend solo cups at the beginning and always using the smallest container possible as you build up the root ball.

You can recover this plant, but it is going to take patience. If you are in there puttering around and changing something every day, you are probably not doing this right. There are many times that I water my plants and then walk away from my tents for 3 days, knowing that everything is fine. Trust your plants... they know what to do. When you are waiting for them to drain the water, trust your plants again, and know that they will tell you when they want water. A healthy plant will definitely will tell you when it needs water. You want to water just before the point that the plant will start wilting due to a lack of water, and please take this as the truth... it is better to let her wilt for a few hours needing water, than to do as you have been doing, keeping her wet. For about a day, a strong healthy plant that is about to need watering, will do something that you can look for... the very lowest leaves will start to droop. Watch for this sign, and know that she is going to need water soon... but be tough with her... she is a weed. She can handle it. Actually, when she gets to this stage and knows she is about to need water... that is when she does the most growing of new roots, seeking out new water sources. Get her to this point every time... stronger roots mean a stronger and bigger plant above.

Hope this helps... you are learning fast! I wish someone had explained all this to me when I was new, you are lucky you found 420mag! Good luck, you will be on the way to recovery soon!
 
It's been 3 or so days since I've watered, it's taking them a while to dry up, thank you for the helpful advice, I'll let them completely dry up the soil see if they start getting any better... and now I'll know how to keep up with it the next time I swap pots
 
Jon, thank you for the recent picture. Clearly this picture shows a plant being watered too often, and I would say based on my experience, that this is the major problem that you have. I really like your idea of bringing a scale in to weigh your containers, and from that experiment you will learn a lot about how much water is in your container at all points during the wet/dry cycle.

The sticking your finger in the top of the soil and trying to figure out whether to water or not, that is how you grow tomatoes, outside, in the ground. It is not how a container grow works, especially for a weed. Your finger sticking in the top of the soil tells you ZERO about what is happening at the bottom of the container... no matter how far you stick your finger in. As it turns out, the very very bottom of your container, where the big tap roots of a weed reside, is the most important place in that container of soil, and not the top where you have been basing your watering decisions on. Those bottom roots need oxygen every wet/dry cycle, and if they don't get it, they start to shut down. The leaf damage that you are seeing is a direct result of the plant no longer being able to supply all of its nutritional needs, because its biggest pipeline, those very bottom roots, are in trouble. Weeds are not tomatoes, and they do not like being watered too much, or being given nutrients when they cant use them... these are weeds, and they thrive in a bit of adversity... it is what they do.

Along with the above described symptom, you also have a very wrinkled and downward drooping presentation of all of your leaves. Your leaves are attempting to increase their surface area with the crinkled swollen look, so that they can evaporate water faster, trying to rid themselves of the flood at their toes. A healthy plant will lift those leaves up to the light, and they will not be all crinkled looking... they will be flat. This look of the leaves is classic, and as soon as I saw your picture I knew that watering too often was the problem. I also do not at all agree with your optimistic assessment that your new growth looks green and healthy... it looks a little yellow and unhealthy to me.

So you have been advised to use the lift method. Let me describe it for you. Take a container just like what you are using for your plant, and fill it with fresh dry soil right out of the bag. Lift it, and weigh it. This is how you want your plant's container to feel like before you water the next time. Using the scale may confuse you a bit, and realize that the scale can "see" a bit more of the water than you can "see" using the lift method, so don't go completely crazy with the scale, insisting on dry weight. It is a closed container system and it will retain a bit of moisture, and also because of capillary action, even though the rest of the container is dry, in between the roots and between the roots and the container sides, never will completely dry out. When you water by weight, get down to about 5-10% of the wet weight, and you should be good. When you lift it, you will not be able to tell much of a difference between that and the dry container of soil.

With damaged roots, it is going to take a lot longer than the 2-3 days that you have been giving them, to dry out the container. I would guess that the first few times you do this correctly, it may take 4 or 5 days to dry them out. As the roots recover however, this time between waterings will steadily decrease, and there will come a day when your plants are able to suck all the water you can give them up, in 24 hours. When you find that you are needing to water that often, it will be time to up-pot to the next bigger sized container and repeat this entire process.

Lastly, lets talk about the actual watering. It is impossible to overwater by giving too much water at any one time. It is actually your goal to water slowly, giving the soil time to absorb the water like a sponge, and you should attempt each time to "fill" that soil up with as much water as you can get it to hold, where any extra water will simply flow out of the bottom drainage holes. I even come back about a half hour after watering, and I water a second time, just to make sure that I have filled any void areas in that root ball, with good fresh water.
I weighed a container of dry soil, watered it as described here, and then weighed it again. I then put an empty cup on my scale, and filled it to achieve the weight of the water that I had added to my plant's cup. I was amazed when I learned that a good soil can hold up to 2/3 of its volume in water... the water vastly outweighing the soil. This is how much water was in my cup, and how much is suspended in solution when you saturate your container:
DSCF4779-fixed.png


That my friend is a lot of water for such a tiny space, indeed all of the empty space in that cup fills with water when properly done. It then becomes the task of the plant to use all that water, and your task to wait until she has done so, before you fill her up again.

This seems to be the hardest thing for new growers of weeds to do... to be patient, and wait for however long it takes to dry out the bottom roots. If you put your plant in too large of a container and properly saturate the soil, it is very easy to drown a plant, because it could take a week or more to use all the water held in the bottom of the container, and by that time the top of the plant's root system will die because it has been dry for the better part of a week. Big containers kill weeds... so that is why we recommend solo cups at the beginning and always using the smallest container possible as you build up the root ball.

You can recover this plant, but it is going to take patience. If you are in there puttering around and changing something every day, you are probably not doing this right. There are many times that I water my plants and then walk away from my tents for 3 days, knowing that everything is fine. Trust your plants... they know what to do. When you are waiting for them to drain the water, trust your plants again, and know that they will tell you when they want water. A healthy plant will definitely will tell you when it needs water. You want to water just before the point that the plant will start wilting due to a lack of water, and please take this as the truth... it is better to let her wilt for a few hours needing water, than to do as you have been doing, keeping her wet. For about a day, a strong healthy plant that is about to need watering, will do something that you can look for... the very lowest leaves will start to droop. Watch for this sign, and know that she is going to need water soon... but be tough with her... she is a weed. She can handle it. Actually, when she gets to this stage and knows she is about to need water... that is when she does the most growing of new roots, seeking out new water sources. Get her to this point every time... stronger roots mean a stronger and bigger plant above.

Hope this helps... you are learning fast! I wish someone had explained all this to me when I was new, you are lucky you found 420mag! Good luck, you will be on the way to recovery soon!

Not going to snip a thing from this awesome post. Bookmarked for future reference.

Very well done Emilya!
 

I have that same exact meter! One thing you should look into is that 91 max temp. I don't know your strain, but that's a bit warm. I keep my full growns at just about 80, but for this size I would try more for mid 70's. These just don't have the mass yet for temps in the 90's. Unless that's just a weird anomaly on your meter. And watch your swing between high and low. You don't want extremes on both ends.

Now I'd definitely say keep going with these. Your new growth looks fine and this will be a healthy plant.
 
Guano that 91° was from it being locked up tight when I first was testing my lights in there, it stays around 78° in there on average when lights are on. Low 69° highs 79° I just recently had to add fans to help dry the soil and lower Temps on count of the unusual high Temps outside here right now, like a heat wave when it's suppose to be snowing so running hot inside also just for a few more days then it will be below freezing again outside. Make it easier to control in here... all this information has been helpful, I never thought something as simple as watering could cause so many problems. I'll keep this and my journal updated on how it turns out.
 
What do you typically want your high/low temp gap to stay between? And I meant to ask about watering seedlings, what I've been doin with them is giving them a 1/8 cup to a 1/4 of water when needed as they are easier to pick up and tell when the soil dry in the solo cups.
 
What do you typically want your high/low temp gap to stay between? And I meant to ask about watering seedlings, what I've been doin with them is giving them a 1/8 cup to a 1/4 of water when needed as they are easier to pick up and tell when the soil dry in the solo cups.

Once the seedlings have established, which means they no longer can float around in the soil like a ship in a storm, they are firmly rooted to the bottom... then it is time to stop treating them like wounded little helpless things, and get going with the water. Fill it up... see just how much water that solo cup can hold.

I got to ask... you said you are giving them 1/8 to 1/4 cup when needed. Who told you it was time to do this? Who told you that they only wanted this little dribble of water? Of course the answer is no one, but I am making a point. You made those decisions for the plant. You, with your human brain, who does not really understand plant brain thoughts, made these decisions for the plant.

The biggest part of being a good gardener is to know how to supply what is needed, and then how to get out of the way and let the plant handle things. Fill up the soil with water, and let the plant work on it. Make them work on finding that water before you give them more. You've got to be a little cruel to be kind to a weed... it is just how these things work.
 
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