Increasing yield with defoliation indoors: What's it mean? How to do it?

[FarEye]

Thanks bid. I'm in hydro - NFT. I'm thinking possibly I've kept my ph too low for a few weeks (mid 5s) - I find it hard to tell what it is sometimes using the drops as the tank solution is brown / yellow before I even do the test. I've picked up a ph pen now so hopefully will be better able to measure it. The other thing I was thinking was that possibly the strain is less receptive to defol as it's a sativa dominant I believe and early on in this thread there was mention that indicas responded best.

FarEye

 

[BigIrishDoode]

yeah it seems indicas do better with it but some sativas seem fine too, my big issue with hydro is chasing ph and brown roots, i guess i needed something other than 29% h2o2 to keep it clean,and im bad about res changing, and i like organics but ill try hydro again one day

 

[Hiker]

I agree with the impression that indicas respond better to defol than sativas. Of course there are always variations, but as a general rule I think this is sound.

BID, if you try hydro again, use DM's Zone. I stopped using H2O2 and love Zone.

 

[Smokemupm8]

Hey guys,
Just thought I d add a little of my experience to this so far.. I grow using LST in organic soil under 400w MH/HPS. As Im using LST I need to arrange the branches into an even canopy and set them out so they all will achieve maximum growth.
My last grow I trimmed heavier than the one prior to that. The plant was shorter ( 4.5ftx4.5ft ) as compared to previous of 6ft5x4.5ft, The larger plant had some massive colas and I only trimmed where neccesary, unfortunately most of the harvest was stolen and I was left with 6.5oz Here s how she looked :

This was Cindy.

With my last grow I was trying to achieve similar results as this plant, but in a shorter time frame as some hadnt liked Cindy s 15/16 week grow period. So my next girl, Kiksum, I grew in Veg a shorter time, she was flipped at about 2.5ft tall compared to Cindy s near 4ft Veg height. And she was pulled about 2 weeks earlier all up than Cindy.
I estimated that Kiksums growth would maybe yield 8oz dry, as she was shorter, Id taken more leaves from her and i thought she didnt have as much growth on the branches.
Early into harvest tho, I was soon realising that I was actually looking at more than my 8oz estimate. I ended up doubling that and a bit more, 16.5oz all up, plus the 14g of small nugs attached to her limbs still I gave to a mate. So she really amazed me.
Usually in my trimming, Ill only take a fan leaf if its blocking a shoot directly below it, and I stagger the leaves I take so Ill take one leaf from one branch, one from another if needed. But I believe its best to leave a decent amount of fans on the plant - even tho I remove about 2 or more Oz of leaf and branch material over a grow, But it is important to only take whats needed as in flower some leaves feed buds too, as they store nutes and photosynth.
Heres a pic of my last girl Kiksum :

OH.. And some bud:

Sorry bout the lack of quality, but yeah, She was a shorter version ( same strain ) as Cindy, So if I managed 1lb from Kiksum, Id really have liked to known what Cindy s total weight was!!
Anyways, Since starting to use LST Ive adapted it to suit my space and I LOVE IT!!! My girls are all forming in the similar manner and I hope that this girl will manage to pull me over 1 pound again too.. This is my latest LST d creation, Lucy...

LST is the BOMB!! If I had enough space Id be growing 12ft LST d plants Nice work guys - lots of great info in here and guides from great ppl. I am happy to have picked up a few tips and am now doing ok CHEERS GUYS!!! Take it easy, Smokemup

 

[spring2012]

Love it Smokem.

 

[Bassman59]

I'm seeing some trends from posters in the thread. I'm going to make some comments to these trends. Take it as you will. It's just my opinion based on my learning and experience.

1. Waiting until flower before starting to defoliate.

Comments: Not preparing in veg is like not having an hour of foreplay. Sure, you'll get off, but the build up from foreplay may just make for an awesome explosion. Preparing, by defoliating in veg makes tighter internodal spacing (more bud in condensed area). You learn in veg if your strain likes defoliation by how it responds over the next 5-8 days. This can mean bust or boom, and if your strain doesn't like it in veg, you'll have wasted far less time than if you were to find out 3-4 weeks into an 8 week flowering period. Besides, can't we all say we'd love to see more bud in a tighter area thanks to closer internodal spacing? i.e. more yield per cubic foot.

2. Taking only a few leaves at a time, over a longer period to prevent stress.

Comments: I lol at this. They won't stress out! They will just put even more energy into creating more nodes and with that an explosion of even more leaves. All in a 5-8 day period. Or would you rather spend two weeks pulling just a few leaves at a time and not really do much of anything? I've posted pics of the progression in veg from a fully leafed out plant, then stripped, and regrowth results @ 3, 5, 7, 10 days after stripping in my journals and (I think) in this thread. Don't worry about stress! Hit'em hard. They recover insanely fast, and I believe the results are much better than long, incremental, minimal defoliation.

3. Indica vs Sativa

Comments: I have not grown Sativa. My experience is limited to Indica dominates with the exception of recently growing two Martian Kush which are supposed to be mostly indica but have massive insane stretch. Indica dominant plants are obviously bushier and more squat. As a result they are also much leafier and thus light penetration is more limited through so many leaves. Indica plants get even tighter internodal spacing through defoliation in veg. And in flower these nodes tend to generate plenty of small sugar leaves for transpiration and become very solid good sized nugs all nice and close together. Again, more bud per cubic foot. Being shorter, in the most simplistic terms, your light tends to have to travel a far less distance to go from top to bottom of plant. This means more light by HUGE margins is delivered per cubic foot. In a sativa grow, your plant is obviously taller and naturally less light per foot as you get so much further away than you would with the indica.

4. Overall not delivering enough light to the plants.

Comments: This imo is the biggest sin. After all, the whole idea behind defoliation is to deliver tons more light. I believe in this wholeheartedly. Not enough light is generally as a result of too low wattage per sq foot or cubic foot. I direct you to this light depth chart: How far of a distance? Lets look at 400w HPS for example. According to the chart, optimal distance range for a 400w hps is from 5" to 21" away from the bulb. This means that anything further than 21" from the bulb is not receiving enough proper light. Or basically, more than 21" away it's getting less than 5200 lumen. For example, at 36" away from the light, it's getting about 1700 lumen or 1/3rd of optimal. If your plant is 5 foot tall, you probably have more than three feet or 60% of wasted plant and growth period! That's HUGE!

Yet with a 1000 watt light, you're also only getting optimal penetration 36" away from the light. Notice the light is 2.5 times stronger, but the penetration is only about 75% further. That's Diminishing light. So even with a 1k watt light we're really only looking at a maximum height of plant at about 26 inches or so. WOW! READ THAT AGAIN! (this obviously only applies to horizontal lighting)

However, if we can get 10-12 oz from each plant less than 30" tall, under 1k watts, is that not quite a boon? Or does one believe vegging 3-5 weeks longer to get a 5-6 foot tall plant with donkey dick colas yielding 16oz is more efficient? Personally, I'd rather have 10-12oz with 7-9 gram big buds (dry) and tons of 2-4 gram buds, and have used 3-5 weeks less power with huge $$ savings.

If we were under the sun, growing 6 foot tall indicas, the plant would be getting over 10k lumen (I know we dont really measure in lumen, but it's good for this context) from top to bottom. That outdoor plant is not so limited to proper light as the 1k watt or worse yet the 400 watt 6 footer would be.

Some personal observations:
OMG, dont center your rectangular hood in a confined space! While your hood may be 25" x 35", the light will not really send equal amounts over that entire area. Take a look up into your hood with the light on and you'll see. My hood is 35" WIDE. But the receptacle is inbound a substantial distance from the outer edge. To further complicate things, the bulb is x long and the element doesnt even start producing any light x number of inches further in. As such, I have 12-13 INCHES from the receptacle edge of hood too the point of light production. This means everything "behind" that 13" is getting less direct light! My results have shown now through two grows before realizing this, that the plant in that specific area of less direct light is at least HALF as dense at harvest. Sure the nugs are big, but they are light as hell and fluffier. While any other buds, even those from the same plant but directly under the actual direct lighting are tons heavier. I now have my hood shoved further to the inside edge of the tent and expect much better results. This actually makes me lean further to the idea that two medium sized hoods with 600w bulbs, bulbs facing opposite directions would yield well more than the 20% more total wattage so long as I keep my plants under 28" tall.

More importantly however, is that above seems to prove out even more how important direct light is to the overall yield and density, which even further illustrates how defoliation can be so beneficial when done properly.

 

[spring2012]

Bassman,
Glad to see you! Great observations.

 

[Bassman59]

Bassman,
Glad to see you! Great observations.

Thanks spring. Been busy as hell and unable to devote the time I want here.

 

[Smokemupm8]

Yeah well I trim my girls, as I LST , and I had a 6.5ft plant that had good growth about 3.5ft down the plant and the light was about 7"inch from the tops.
I dont like to heavily trim them in early Veg, maybe just before flower time ( a week or so ) and then trim it hard. Ive always just wondered, do the larger fan leaves store/produce more sugars etc during Photosynth than the smaller ones on stripped plants?
And Ive seen plants totally stripped and IDK for sure but Id imagine that thered have to be some releation between removing too many leaves vs Plnt rpoduction/growth.
I have these charts and I use a 400w plant, I veg til about 3-3.5ft, the whole plants branches and shoots get light as I have my light on a track an I raise/lower/left/right it over the day, and as Ive spread out the branches and trimmed where needed she is doing ok so far - apart from me breaking her main cola But she s healed!!
I had my 6.5ftx4.5ft plant with huge cola s and fairly dense nugs all way down about 3.5ft each branch, not sure of total weight, but my last , which was shorter 4.5x4.5ft, I thought would give me less weight, but I ended up with 16.5oz dry from it in the end Double what Id guessed, it was a result of the amount of buds and the size of each one.
The previous tho, Im sure wouldve done more than 16.5 oz dry. I am LST ing this gril, Lucy, this her at 8 weeks, 2.5ftx3.5ft. :

I dont stress on going for a couple extra weeks, I will flip at 3-3.5ft, aiming for around 6ft total height. Great article Bass And trimming correctly can have great benefits, I just cant strip my girls down that much!!
Take it easy guys, Smokemup

 

[FarEye]

Having recently picked up a PH pen I think my period of slow growth was more likely related to keeping ph too low. It's one of my favourite possesions now

 

[Hiker]

Having recently picked up a PH pen I think my period of slow growth was more likely related to keeping ph too low. It's one of my favourite possesions now

Grats! It's a nice feeling knowing you can monitor the ph. Now you just have to avoid over managing it.
The ideal is 5.9, but it really is better for the plant to drift between ~5.5 and 6.2

 

[Smokemupm8]

My poor Lucy is starting to show some signs of a Deific. I think, maybe a Potass?? She s slowly gettin a couple dark patchy spots on a couple leaves. I may have over fed causing a lock out, I havent been able to check my PH accurately as I think my PH meter is dicked? Ill try it again after her water and see what it says, I just was thinking it was at fault as last grow it was showing various readings over a few days. I know it happens a bit, but in an organic soil it SHOULD be buffering to some degree? And on my charts a suggested good range is between 6.5 - 7.0 ish, But I usually end up having around 6.2-6.6 and theyre usually ok? Tho if theres too many nutes or PH is out of wack it could be showing these symptoms.
So I think I should flush her basically and just water feed for a bit. Since my last post, Lucy has been trimmed a few times and since Ive tethered the largest branches, Lucy sent some others up as main branches so she s looking nearly even canopy wise now There is still the slight difference where the break occurred, but its catching up bit by bit!!
I was, as always hesitant to trim her, as she has this other slight prob atm, But when I had the cahnce to survey her from directly above, I spotted areas where the light, would struggle to reach and also had shoots growing up under the leaves pushing up into them. So these I took, She will be fine for least a week or so - probably just before I flower her Ill give her another slight trim up, I dont wanna hassle her much during flower, only whats needed.
These new Apical tops Lucy made, are gradually thickening stems so I hope that these will keep up the growth, they potentially going to be growing nice buds.
And just in regard to comment about using a 1000w light to harvest 10 or so oz dry from a plant that was 30 inch or so tall, and how he believed it was better than waiting couple more weeks to pull a pound, and the diffference between power bills.
Well I use a 400w or if needed a 600w HPS, and Ive grown plants over 6ft many times, I use soil, indoor - LST - and I usually use a 17/7 light/dark schedule, and then 11/13 flower period. Even using the 600w in my space which is 4.5ftx8.5ft, I get good coverage LST ing as long as I arrange my plant in the best way for my space and try to get as many main vertical branches as possible, my last had about 12 I think? But wouldnt using a 1000w setup, end up about the same price if not more compared to using a 400/600w
setup even tho its couple weeks shorter?A 1K setup is near double a 600w...Anyways, my bill wasnt up very much at all and I grew slightly longer than some, my previous before that was 15/16 weeks, these were a couple of her buds:

But my last she was only 4.5ft tall x 4.5ft wide:

Not quite as big!
I thought Id barely get 8oz from her, but come harvest, I ended up with OVER 1 pound.
Since learning and adapting the LST methods Ive seen, I want no less than 1lb p/plant.. And YES, ID RATHER WAIT 2 MORE WEEKS FOR AN EXTRA 5 OR MORE Oz from my plant!!
I am not trying to insult anyone here, everyone has their right to opinions and I AM NOT TELLING PPL TO FOLLOW ME OR I KNOW BEST.. I am only going from what Ive done and seen.. I try to keep things simple and to gain as much from 1 plant as possible due to me only growing 1 plant a time!! So the couple weeks to me is worth it, I love the LST and I believe that trimming some fans is essential or beneficial if you cant tuck or such - This is kind of how I get my plants main stems to grow ' \IIII/ ' each vertical stem can grow large cola's, I will not be removing as much fan leaf or leaf material during flower as I think that they are important to a plants ability to store/intake nutes and feed buds.. JUST AN OBSERVATION/OPINION AGAIN!!! NOT SCIENCE FACT!! Sorry.. And Sorry also for the Hi jack Ooops!!
But Id just like to say that defoliation, when combined with LST or super cropping, can produce great results from a single plant, and if you only grow a single plant, and have time and space for a larger girl, GO FOR IT IMO!!! As I said, 2- 2.5 weeks longer for around 5oz gain is not bad.. Tho just look into what youre doing if its your first go at LST/Super crop/topping etc;
TAKE CARE GUYS - ALL THE BEST AND I HOPE THAT YOUR GROWS ARE ALL DOING WELL AND GROWING LIKE CRAZY!! Keep up all the fine work theres some top quality grow journals here
Chat soon everyone - SMOKEMUP

 

[crashnfool]

Hey all... still trimming away on another set of plants...Girl scout cookies, C+, and mendo purps... strip em till they are naked !!!!! The last stripper plant was an almost dead, bug-ridden excuse for a plant.. I wasn't sure she'd survive, but I went ahead and started in on her. Now she is F*@#ing huge and looking at 20+ bud sites... Strip her then bend her over... I did it... and she liked it!! I'll try to get some pics just too busy right now .... Keep on keeping on!

 

[Bassman59]

@smoke, Yo smoke, I don't do soil as I think you've seen before. So I can't say anything about ph and lockouts there. However, I highly suggest calibrating your ph meter often. I finally bought a higher end meter a few months ago and with it a liter of calibration fluid rather than a little bottle. I calibrate mine about every 10 days or so. I guess some meters will fluctuate less but they all need to be checked from time to time.

As for the watts per area, yield comparisons and what not, dont forget I was speaking of per plant, and sq ft use and time to grow. It's not hard to see over 10z PER PLANT under 30" tall. For me, that's times four plants in my 5x5 tent. In your 4.5x8.5 in my ideal world, the way I grow, I would run 6 plants in 5 gal buckets, 3 x 600w lights for 47 watts per sq foot. Again keeping the plants shorter in height, 30" max, I should be able to see 60z dry yield.

Most standards suggest 50 watts per sq foot is ideal for indoor growing. If we look at your example you're using 15 watts per sq ft with a single 600w. In my 5x5 I am getting 40w per sq ft. Still not ideal but in what is considered the "minimum" range.

That being said, your 1 plant yield is excellent. But I believe you could yield the same or more with a shorter plant(s), using all your same technique, but yielding throughout the top to bottom of the plant(s). This is simply because the math is simple, beyond x" of any light there is no discernible production because the lights just can not deliver the lumen, umols, or whatever term you choose to use. Where "X" is dependent upon which wattage light you use. A generally accepted value is a 400w hps will grow optimally 6"-22" from the bulb, 600w 8"-29", and a 1000w is 10"-36" from the bulb. This means any plant material outside of those ranges is getting less than optimal light value and will not deliver good flower in those ranges. Only in the upper part of the plant will you get the good bud.

Lest we forget, the technique(s) I describe in this thread are directed at maximum yield in a very limited space. It's quite possible to do even better using vertical lighting techniques but that's not what we're talking about here.

If we accept that the standardized light depth charts are accurate. Growing our plants beyond those ranges becomes more wasted time and thus $$ energy. There becomes a point of diminishing returns as you can see.

It's about top to bottom good bud rather than yielding only 1/3rd of the plant, using this technique. I don't mean to say you're "doing it wrong". Far from it. You are getting excellent results. I just think you're missing a part of the puzzle growing so tall with the limitations of our weak ass lights (compared to the sun) indoors.

While you would probably see a little less total yield in a single plant if you grew shorter, I really believe that with the same wattage, you could grow just two plants even, and yield substantially more and in less total time with your skills. You won't have foot long donkey dick colas. But instead you'll have excellent solid bud from top to bottom. And you can't smoke a donkey dick all at once anyways. You will however have lots of 4-7g bud and tons of 1-2g bud. I could easily see you yielding 20-24oz with two plants in less time than your 1 plant 16oz grow(s). You're an excellent grower, and I'm sure you can apply your skills and experience with astounding results using these methods and techniques.

I don't mean to insult you and I hope I haven't come off as such. My only intention is to offer you a different view point to think about. Even if you choose to stick with your style of growing you're going to continue with excellent results no doubt. You have proven your ability to do so already.

Sorry this became such a big, long, wall of text. But it takes some explaining to get the theories involved across.

Happy growing to all!

 

[spring2012]

Bass,
good stuff. makes sense.

 

[budwiz420]

hey bassman59 i know ur a master at defoliation so i need ur help!!!!

400w hps and 175w mh

soil: ocean forest

nutes: im using bloombastic, molasses, GH calmag+. i have buddha bloom and buddha grow but idk if i should use it

im scroging an my girl is at week 6 1/2 flowering out of a 10 to 11 week flower cycle. she has some sort of deficiency im thinking its a p deficiency but im not shure. should i not defoliate because of her deficiency or go ham on her lol (i have defoliated her in veg alot) both the plants are the same the smaller one is a clone from the big one just at different flower periods. ive seen photos of buds at week 6 and they look 3x bigger then mine but its purp and i know it has a long flower time. it might have a lockout idk tho i just got a ph test kit a week ago.......peace

 

[budwiz420]

 

[budwiz420]

i hate looking at these pics

 

[Bassman59]

Budwiz, I was going to post in that other place you asked the question, but I'll answer here.

Your gals are more than ready for a stripping. In fact, it's late kinda. You would have seen more benefit hitting them right after stretch ended, or about 3 weeks ago.

When taking fan leaves now, remove only those that have a stem and the corresponding node is developed to a point where it has true leaf. *Long stems and brand new nodes, leave the fan til that node grows a little.

All other fans with stems you can easily clip, do so. No need to worry about where you clip the stem. It'll die and fall off soon enough. And I don't buy any thoughts about "open wounds". If that were the case we would never super crop.

You do want to take care of the deficiency however. I'm not sure what it is and would have to look it up myself to find out.

Also, really try reading over the few starting posts in this thread as it gives a pretty good description of when, why, & how we're doing this.

 

[budwiz420]

thank u bassman for the fast reply im stripping her down right now here are some pics of the infected leaves under normal light so u can see the color better (not all her leaves are like this most of them just have burnt tips)