Maui Wowie x 2: A Side By Side Comparison

[medmanmike]

Time for a little update on the Mauis! - BIGs 46 days from seed. PMOs 53 days f/seed.

I was gone for a week on vaca and when I returned I swear they doubled in size! I had to cull the PMO Maui as it was, indeed, a male. It was a nicely structured plant and if I had the space I would have kept it for the pollen.
Anyway here's what's going on.

All plants are growing strong. I see a slight difference between the structure of the PMO and BIGs. Remember that the BIG Mauis are a week behind the PMOs. Having said that, they have caught up in height and are a little bit more "solid" - heavier stalks/stems and more robust side branching than the PMOs.

All plants were topped and most are progressing as one would expect. I've done a lite pruning and are LSTing to spread the grow tips out.

The first pic is the BIG male that I culled. He was quite a bit taller than the others, though I didn't top the plant as I suspected it was a male. Nicely developing plant however.

The second pic is a comparison of two of the PMOs. They look almost identical in structure and are filling out nicely. The 3rd PMO looks the same.

The last pic is the BIG Maui. If you compare her to her counterpart in the first pic, you can see a similarity in their structure. She has a straight and sturdy main stem and vigorous side branching.

I'm planning on transplanting this coming weekend and putting them into flower. Currently running 18/6 and will work my way down to 11/13 over the course of a week/10 days.

with

 

[Duggan]

Evenin Mike...i see your girls are in 'bootcamp'....

 

[medmanmike]

Update time - 2/11/20

Mauis were heavily pruned and transplanted into 7 gal pots this past Sat. LST is rampant and they are spreading out nicely. I dropped lights to 16/8 on sunday and will go down 2 hours every other day until at 12/12. Later during flower I'll go to 11/13 to finish them off.

I've run into an issue with some leaves - I've detailed this on Doc Bud's Q&A thread. Basically, leaves are fading slightly yellow, but more of a concern is the necrosis that is developing within the leaf. The first pic shows this. Doc's not sure, others suggested overwatering or roots not "hooked up". I'm thinking maybe a calcium imbalance or lack thereof. Thoughts?

Plant #3 in the last pic is (was) the one Maui with the issue. Since I posted my initial concern more plants are now showing the same issue, including some White Widows still in 1 gal pots.

Here's some shots of the plants and an overall of the garden.

 

[Graytail]

The roots just aren't performing.

I wish I could give you "the solution" but it's something that I've battled unsuccessfully myself. They're showing definite signs of Calcium def, but it can't be because of soil or nutes. They're all packed with Calcium.

So the solution is to get the roots and biota communicating again. The plants clearly have needs, but the critters aren't responding. Why not? That's the question. Everything is in place but they ain't communicatin'.

So I'd be thinking about a Rescue drench, or something similar. Goose the herd. Get 'em off they lazy azzes.

Best advice I got. Roll it around in your mind awhile. Trans will get the best response from the herd, but boosting soil energy wouldn't hurt either. So a heavy shot of a blend might be a good idea at this point. Can't really hurt. It's hard to overdose with these nutrients.



(Has your water quality changed recently? - a bad filter or something?)

 

[medmanmike]

The roots just aren't performing.

I wish I could give you "the solution" but it's something that I've battled unsuccessfully myself. They're showing definite signs of Calcium def, but it can't be because of soil or nutes. They're all packed with Calcium.

So the solution is to get the roots and biota communicating again. The plants clearly have needs, but the critters aren't responding. Why not? That's the question. Everything is in place but they ain't communicatin'.

So I'd be thinking about a Rescue drench, or something similar. Goose the herd. Get 'em off they lazy azzes.

Best advice I got. Roll it around in your mind awhile. Trans will get the best response from the herd, but boosting soil energy wouldn't hurt either. So a heavy shot of a blend might be a good idea at this point. Can't really hurt. It's hard to overdose with these nutrients.



(Has your water quality changed recently? - a bad filter or something?)

Grey, I think you're spot on with the "roots aren't performing." Doc just replied in his Q&A saying the same thing. (even though it shows CA def. I keep forgetting it can't be due to Doc's soil, etc.)

I used filtered city water. Filter is only a few months old - good for 10K gal. I"m not even close!
He suggested Energy only for a while so hopefully that will kick them in the butt!

 

[Mr. Magoo]

So what was the solution proposed? Rescue drench? I’m still trying to train myself to think “if it looks like a deficiency- it’s not- it’s the herd.”

 

[medmanmike]

Mr. Magoo, Doc replied: "
It's impossible to have a calcium deficiency when the soil has more calcium than basically any other soil....

But when the roots aren't working then nothing gets absorbed by the plant, so it's more of a root issue.

I know your environment is dialed in and you know how to mix soil, so neither of those are an issue.

And since other plants are showing the most logical explanation is a pathogen in the soil, most likely a competing fungus or something like that. Have you seen any mushrooms in the bin or containers by chance?

Growth Ionic can be absorbed by roots in "hydro" fashion, so in order to finish till harvest I'd use that product exclusively for a while and see if anything clears up. Also, add Snake Oil to the foliars twice.

Then, if every plant has the issue AND you haven't had this problem before, we're likely looking at a pathogen in the bin, in which case it's time to toss the soil. You could put it out under the sun this summer and be able to re-use it if you wanted.

Also, if you toss the soil and start fresh, make sure the bin is sprayed with bleach first."

I haven’t made A decision yet, other than to go with Energy drenches and Snake Oil as Doc suggested. I don’t see anything unusual with/in my soil.

dajerm119 messaged me and said he had similar issues unti he started using Duggins method of 15ml of drench per gal of water for each feeding. I’ve reached out to Dugs to get more info on his method.

 

[medmanmike]

More from Doc,

" This is a very interesting problem! If the pathogen is in the soil and you recycle, it's going to get passed along.

I say toss it, bleach everything, sulfur burn the room with all pots and containers in the room and start with fresh, first run soil.

I seem to recall a batch of Promix that went out perhaps a year ago with this yellow crusty goo in it.....I didn't think twice about it, as i know others also mentioned it and no one reported problems. I'm not saying it's the Promix at all, I'm literally wracking my brain to figure out what the problem might be!"

 

[Graytail]

And you're confidant in your water? My city water is far too hard to use, but when I read the reports anyway, I find that it can change dramatically. So if yours was anywhere near 100, it might have drifted upward and be shifting your soil ...

Roots aren't sitting on concrete - pot temps are ok ...

Those rootballs should have taken explosively to the new soil.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

dajerm119 messaged me and said he had similar issues unti he started using Duggins method of 15ml of drench per gal of water for each feeding. I’ve reached out to Dugs to get more info on his method.

This is what I do as well.

 

[medmanmike]

And you're confidant in your water? My city water is far too hard to use, but when I read the reports anyway, I find that it can change dramatically. So if yours was anywhere near 100, it might have drifted upward and be shifting your soil ...

Roots aren't sitting on concrete - pot temps are ok ...

Those rootballs should have taken explosively to the new soil.

Grey,

Pots are two inches off the floor with an air gap. Checking temp of the concrete with a laser gun is consistently around 70°. I haven’t checked my water in a while, so I looked up the annual report.
SUBSTANCE. AVERAGES
Hardness - 143
Ph - 7.5
Chloride - 19
Sodium - 9.8

Given Doc's method, I haven’t paid much attention to this so I really don’t know if the numbers are good or not. I suspect the PH might be a little high For cannabis. Your thoughts on the numbers?

 

[Graytail]

Grey,

Pots are two inches off the floor with an air gap. Checking temp of the concrete with a laser gun is consistently around 70°. I haven’t checked my water in a while, so I looked up the annual report.
SUBSTANCE. AVERAGES
Hardness - 143
Ph - 7.5
Chloride - 19
Sodium - 9.8

Given Doc's method, I haven’t paid much attention to this so I really don’t know if the numbers are good or not. I suspect the PH might be a little high For cannabis. Your thoughts on the numbers?

Aha. Yes. To be exact, for our purposes, it's not so much the pH as the hardness number. I forget the difference, but the ppm of 143 is what we need to pay attention to. Mine is in the high 300s, so no straight city water for me. Doc has estimated that under 80 is fine.

So. It doesn't really explain why you have some good plants and some iffy ones. But it's a clue. The water isn't hard enough to be very concerned about, but over time it'll tilt the mineral balance in the soil, which this method hinges on. If you're in 3rd run it might a factor, but I doubt it's a big deal for 1st and 2nd runs.

It's also possible that you have a couple pots that caught a poor mix of soil.

Dunno ... but a clue or two there.

 

[medmanmike]

Aha. Yes. To be exact, for our purposes, it's not so much the pH as the hardness number. I forget the difference, but the ppm of 143 is what we need to pay attention to. Mine is in the high 300s, so no straight city water for me. Doc has estimated that under 80 is fine.

So. It doesn't really explain why you have some good plants and some iffy ones. But it's a clue. The water isn't hard enough to be very concerned about, but over time it'll tilt the mineral balance in the soil, which this method hinges on. If you're in 3rd run it might a factor, but I doubt it's a big deal for 1st and 2nd runs.

It's also possible that you have a couple pots that caught a poor mix of soil.

Dunno ... but a clue or two there.

Since I posted the original issue, ALL plants are experiencing this. I’m going to look closer into the water issue. Run the numbers past doc. Thanks for ideas!

 

[equinox]

Aha. Yes. To be exact, for our purposes, it's not so much the pH as the hardness number. I forget the difference, but the ppm of 143 is what we need to pay attention to. Mine is in the high 300s, so no straight city water for me. Doc has estimated that under 80 is fine.

So. It doesn't really explain why you have some good plants and some iffy ones. But it's a clue. The water isn't hard enough to be very concerned about, but over time it'll tilt the mineral balance in the soil, which this method hinges on. If you're in 3rd run it might a factor, but I doubt it's a big deal for 1st and 2nd runs.

It's also possible that you have a couple pots that caught a poor mix of soil.

Dunno ... but a clue or two there.

Good morning guys I've been sitting in the back but Gray got me thinking.....................
Now I'm not Doc nor a chemist but to build on what Gray was saying my first thought is the readings from the water company are pre filter and depending on what the filter is supposed to remove, may not be representative of post filter numbers.
Also as mentioned the numbers on city water (or well water) will fluctuate day to day, week to week etc..

Now that said the only number from the water company that seems concerning is the hardness. To put in perspective where your hardness is lets convert from ppm (parts per million) to gpg (grains per gallon). It's easier to understand hardness in this measure because softeners etc. are rated in grains of hardness capacity. As a footnote ppm = mg/l (milligrams per liter).

To convert ppm to gpg: 1 grain = 17.14 ppm so your 143ppm = 8.34 gpg. (143 divided by 17.14)

0-3 excellent
3-7 moderately hard
7-11 hard
11-15 very hard
15+ extremely hard
So you can see your 8.34 gpg is considered hard.

Hardness is MOSTLY calcium and magnesium and can be skewed in either direction, depending , so could be heavy one way or the other.
Now how this effects/doesn't effect Doc's soil......................Dunno

Don't know if heavy cal or mag would have a cause and effect in Doc's soil. Only other thought is too much of either one could possibly alter the electrical charge of the soil given both cal and mag carry a strong positive charge (anion) ?

Just thinking out loud and I hope that maybe this could help in eliminating/identifying water as a culprit.

 

[TheGreenYeti]

Good morning guys I've been sitting in the back but Gray got me thinking.....................
Now I'm not Doc nor a chemist but to build on what Gray was saying my first thought is the readings from the water company are prefilter and depending on what the filter is supposed to remove, may not be representative of post filter numbers.
Also as mentioned the numbers on city water (or well water) will fluctuate day to day, week to week etc..

Now that said the only number from the water company that seems concerning is the hardness. To put in perspective where your hardness is lets convert from ppm (parts per million) to gpg (grains per gallon). It's easier to understand hardness in this measure because softeners etc. are rated in grains of hardness capacity. As a footnote ppm = mg/l (milligrams per liter).

To convert ppm to gpg 1 grain = 17.14 ppm so your 143ppm = 8.34 gpg. (143 divided by 17.14)

0-3 excellent
3-7 moderately hard
7-11 hard
11-15 very hard
15+ extremely hard
So you can see your 8.34 gpg is considered hard.

Hardness is MOSTLY calcium and magnesium and can be skewed in either direction depending so could be heavy one way or the other.
Now how this effects Docs soil......................Dunno

Don't know if heavy cal or mag would have a cause and effect in Docs soil. Only other thought is too much of either one could possible alter the electrical charge of the soil given both cal and mag carry a strong positive charge (anion) ?

Just thinking out loud and I hope that maybe this could be of help in eliminating water as a culprit.

Well considering the whole point of the kit is to have a perfectly balanced soil, with ratios of calcium to magnesium being one of the main ones that needs to be maintained, anything that throws it off is going to effect things. If the ratio gets skewed too much, I am sure that will have negative effects on how they are taken up by the plants.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I just use distilled water. Before the last grow, the facility I work at had to get rid of a bunch of gallons of it. I think I got about 110 gallons for free if I remember correctly
But the plants seemed to really like it so that’s what I’ve stuck to.

 

[PCaddict]

Sticking with Distilled water makes since

 

[equinox]

Yo Mike............how's things going?

Update please.

 

[medmanmike]

Still waiting for Do'c comments re h2o hardness. I reviewed my filter specs - doesn’t address the hardness issue.

"The Clean Water Fun garden hose filter has been specially designed to fit any standard garden hose thread. It has been third party tested to remove Chlorine, Chloramines, VOCs, and Pesticides/Herbicides commonly found in home water supplies. The Clean Water Fun garden hose filter can be used for any of your outdoor water needs where cleaner water is desired.

Do not use with water that is microbiologically unsafe or of unknown quality without adequate disinfection before or after filter.

Service Life: Up to 10,000 Gallons

In third party testing, our filter has been shown to reduce organic chemicals by 99%* and chloramines at 97%* or better. "

The funny thing is, now that the plants have been heavily pruned and upcanned for a week, they seem to be doing much better. I’m wondering if they just didn’t run out of gas in the 1 gal pots. They were pretty root bound.

i transplanted three more today with similar issues. We"ll see if they to improve over the next week.

 

[Duggan]

Yes...i use distilled as u all know. I don't worry about water ruining my roots. Bad water =bad roots.