1st Grow: Indoor Tent, 250W MH/HPS, DWC Hydro, 2'x2' ScrOG

[usul]

Looks like lot of bubbles to me - I've got two 5" diameter round air stones running off a large dual port air pump. But what the heck - since both you and Stealthy have questioned this I'll get another pump plus two more airstones and double the output, which should remove all doubt. It'll be relatively easy and inexpensive so is certainly worth a try.

 

[ultrasonic]

Looks like lot of bubbles to me - I've got two 5" diameter round air stones running off a large dual port air pump. But what the heck - since both you and Stealthy have questioned this I'll get another pump plus two more airstones and double the output, which should remove all doubt. It'll be relatively easy and inexpensive so is certainly worth a try.

Hows the quality of the input air? Does it smell fresh and clean? By input air I mean the air coming into the air pump. The water should kind of "roll" a little. How do the roots look? never really got a shot of them

 

[usul]

Good questions Ultra - the air seems good, ventilation in the tent is great though your point is well taken; there could be something in the air around here that is causing the problems. But if that's the case I'm afraid there's not much I can do about it.

I've been trying to get a good shot of the roots but am having problems getting the camera to focus properly. They were looking great before the last infection and now they're looking sad. Many new roots are growing though - I'll find my tripod and get a good picture.

Anyway, multiple double-strength doses of H2O2 are having no effect and the bacteria continues to grow at an alarming rate. Seems I've grown a new H2O2 resistant strain - bwahahaha - I've created a monster! At this point I've just gotta laugh. Funny thing is the plants are looking great - if I never looked in the res I've be very happy with how things are going.

p.s. to Ultrasonic: Might be best to remove the link to my journal from your signature - not sure I can continue this public self-humiliation much longer...

 

[Stealthy1]

Yah why those bacteria are so strong is confusing to me I have some bacteria in mine but they just hang out occasionally stink up the place but never take over like yours seems odd to me unless light is still getting in or your temps are high....

Did you sterilize your media Hydroton and Rockwool? They could have carrried in the bacteria and act like a breeding ground for it if you didnt?

One thing I noticed in my system a surprising amount of light makes it through the hydroton maybe you could cut some mylar circles with slits in them to cover it....

Other than that Im out of possibilities.

just keep on trucking I guess and hope for the best!

 

[Michael Hunt]

Dont give up yet man, have you made your bin totally light proof? If you have an old black t-shirt stretch it around the bin to help difuse any light getting into the water. Also if your using clear air lines switch over to black so light cannot get in through the hoses. scrub the bin real good, if the air stones are covered in the snot i would probably toss em, paint the bin black or wrap a black shirt around it (or both) and black air lines. also look into covering the clay pellets, light can enter the bin there as well. No sence in giving up if the plants still look good, Im having similar problems testing my DWC tub but the above methods have worked for me so far. Good luck Man!! Dont give up just yet

 

[Stealthy1]

Ha! I beat Mike Hunt
to it with they light and the hydroton thing.
=)

 

[Michael Hunt]

Hahaha, Moving a little slow today

 

[Stealthy1]

No problem I just saw the chance to make a pun on your name.
Get it...?
I beat Mike Hunt? aaaah I crack myself up lol

 

[Michael Hunt]

aahahaha that is really funny,
Im always the last person to catch jokes on my own damn name

Sorry Usul for jacking, Could you post a pic of the inside of your tub so we can see the "snot" and how bad it really is? Maybe even some Child root porn? haha

 

[usul]

Okay, I can't give up yet, but I must admit I was in a nursery today looking at dirt

So, I changed the res again and made a few upgrades. First, here are some shots that show the problem. First, here's a picture of the res before I drained it. Note that you can just barely see the two round blue airstones:

... and here's the res drained. You can see the blobs of bacterial goo stuck to the airstones. There was lots more floating in the water:

Here's a shot of my setup in drain-mode. Having the crawl space access right there is a bonus when it's time to drain - just pop the hatch, place a bucket down there and drain away. You can also get an idea of how cramped I am for space - a larger res just won't fit.

Once drained I cleaned everything up as best I could then installed an additional air pump and four - count 'em, four - brand new airstones. Note that all air tubes are black.

Here's the clean and upgraded setup full of nutes with the air on. Note that the res is entirely covered with aluminim foil so it is 100% light proof. After I took these photos I added foil covers to the net pots

And finally, here a shot of the girls at 16 days old

I tried getting some shots of the roots but forgot my tripod at the studio and couldn't get them in focus - maybe later. I clipped off the saddest looking roots, many if which were infested with goo. New roots are quickly taking their place.

Gotta say I'm not holding out much hope for better results. I'll most likely keep this grow going until the Hygrozyme arrives later this week then will give it a try. But I can't keep this up much longer. If things don't turn around soon I'll be switching to dirt. It may be dirty, but is a heck of a lot cleaner than a res full of goo.

p.s. I've been trying to add larger photos but whenever I upload them they get shrunk to a smaller size. Anyone know how to make it stop resizing my pics?

 

[Stealthy1]

Ok first off that is f8ckin gross man! and its definitely bacteria. I think bleach would be required to kill it if h2o2 wont but youd have to rinse real well and obviously you cant bleach the roots and media which have the bacteria on them.

But yah airstones look good those 12" stones? Definitely not enough bubbles with the other stones you really should have rolling water like someone else said earlier. New bubbles are looking good there. Most BAD bacteria are anaerobic thats why bubbles should help also the rolling action of the water stirs it to eliminate stagnant water. but Im sure you already knew that by now.

were all pullin for yah bud... I dont know between my cabinet full of balls or your slime bucket we got some luck going =/

Oh with the pics after you upload them you see the pic that shows up if you click on it youll get a bigger version. right click that one and copy location.

 

[Stealthy1]

 

[BAMarijuana]

try adding a pump to move water around more. or taking two of them stones off the new four lines in see you have there. that should pop the water around more.

and what is the water temp?
anything to keep it regulated in the tank?

I do DWC in coffee cans, rubbermade tubs, sterilite tubs, any container with a lid and have never had anything like this happen.

I think that area may need more fresh air ventilation.
outside air is best I think.

I also use 3% hydrogen peroxide in my tanks. about 10ml per gallon
i dont mind the asprin buffer in the hyd Peroxide. nor do i care that it is unstable.
it can release all the O2 it wants in the water.

I run a ozone treatment machine on my tanks to. kills bacteria. and fungi, and chlorine

 

[ultrasonic]

Well usul I feel you may be on the right track. Those airstones did not look good, and I still feel strongly that -something- is contaminating your grow. If the airpump is sucking is any bacteria or fungi in the air, the nutrient solution in the water will make it EXPLODE.

What is the quality of air in the crawl space? Traditionally these are stuffy and dusty. Working down there will get all those particles in the air, and if they got into the air pump, who knows! Are there changeable filters in the air pumps? consider washing out the old one in soap and water at least.

As was said before, it doesn't appear your issue is with anaerobic bacteria, but something that could actually enjoy and feed off oxygen. Try going all out with the dose, and remember what you read on the 'net for h202 amounts isn't always the 35%. I for example only have access to 28%, which would obviously require a significantly higher dose. So instead of potentially feeding whatever it is, try to go as hard as you can with the h202 and stay hard on it even for a few days after the slime disappears to ensure everything is oxidized. Remember that the amount of h202 will dissipate quickly, especially with bubbles: like, a half hour kind of quick I would estimate. Consider applying it more frequently.

I've been doing some reading about h202 and its benefits in a hydroponic magazine I have. H202, while effective, isn't really regarded as a possible main source of oxygen because of how quickly is dissipates in the nutrient solution. They're saying the future is an electrode type of device that splits the water into oxygen and hydrogen. The lighter hydrogen floats to the top, leaving the bin, and the water is more fully infused with oxygen. Air stones only add oxygen to the water when the surface tension is broken by the bubble, which has it's obvious downsides.

As for using 3% h202: I just wouldn't. I know people use it with success, but it's not just watered down. On top of that, considering you need a considerable amount more of the 3%, it would always be cheaper to spend 8 bucks on the 35%.

I'm not goin' anywhere usul, I keep your grow in the back of my mind

 

[usul]

try adding a pump to move water around more. or taking two of them stones off the new four lines in see you have there. that should pop the water around more.

and what is the water temp?
anything to keep it regulated in the tank?

I do DWC in coffee cans, rubbermade tubs, sterilite tubs, any container with a lid and have never had anything like this happen.

I think that area may need more fresh air ventilation.
outside air is best I think.

I also use 3% hydrogen peroxide in my tanks. about 10ml per gallon
i dont mind the asprin buffer in the hyd Peroxide. nor do i care that it is unstable.
it can release all the O2 it wants in the water.

I run a ozone treatment machine on my tanks to. kills bacteria. and fungi, and chlorine

Hi and thanks for the support! Water movement appears to be very good - even before adding the extra pump/airstones. I remember watching blobs of goo swirling around in the tank. Fishing one out to take a closer look was a challenge - they were moving around very fast.

Your point about more ventilation is well taken. The home I'm in is new contruction, less than three years old and the crawlspace is very clean, dry, and well ventilated but who knows... It'd be fairly easy to run some ducts to one of the foundation vents and pull in air directly from the outside.

Reservoir temps are low - between 66F and 68F. It's never gone higher than about 68.5F.

And thanks for the thumbs up on Hydrogen Peroxide. How often do you add it to your reservoir?

 

[usul]

Well usul I feel you may be on the right track. Those airstones did not look good, and I still feel strongly that -something- is contaminating your grow. If the airpump is sucking is any bacteria or fungi in the air, the nutrient solution in the water will make it EXPLODE.

What is the quality of air in the crawl space? Traditionally these are stuffy and dusty. Working down there will get all those particles in the air, and if they got into the air pump, who knows! Are there changeable filters in the air pumps? consider washing out the old one in soap and water at least.

As was said before, it doesn't appear your issue is with anaerobic bacteria, but something that could actually enjoy and feed off oxygen. Try going all out with the dose, and remember what you read on the 'net for h202 amounts isn't always the 35%. I for example only have access to 28%, which would obviously require a significantly higher dose. So instead of potentially feeding whatever it is, try to go as hard as you can with the h202 and stay hard on it even for a few days after the slime disappears to ensure everything is oxidized. Remember that the amount of h202 will dissipate quickly, especially with bubbles: like, a half hour kind of quick I would estimate. Consider applying it more frequently.

I've been doing some reading about h202 and its benefits in a hydroponic magazine I have. H202, while effective, isn't really regarded as a possible main source of oxygen because of how quickly is dissipates in the nutrient solution. They're saying the future is an electrode type of device that splits the water into oxygen and hydrogen. The lighter hydrogen floats to the top, leaving the bin, and the water is more fully infused with oxygen. Air stones only add oxygen to the water when the surface tension is broken by the bubble, which has it's obvious downsides.

As for using 3% h202: I just wouldn't. I know people use it with success, but it's not just watered down. On top of that, considering you need a considerable amount more of the 3%, it would always be cheaper to spend 8 bucks on the 35%.

I'm not goin' anywhere usul, I keep your grow in the back of my mind

Thanks Ultra, as always. The crawlspace air seems very good to me but I think the next thing I'll try is adding ductwork to bring in air directly from the outside. Couldn't hurt The air pumps don't have any filters that can be cleaned so that's not an option.

I'm totally with you on upping the H2O2 applications. In fact, right before I read your reply I gave it a big dose - 15ml/gallon. And I'll hit it again in a few hours. The water is still nice and clear so I'm hoping to get a jump on anything that might be growing in there. I'm using the 3% solution which seems to work for many people. Where would I find the 28% - 35% stuff?

 

[BAMarijuana]

HERE>35% Adv Nut. HyOx.

I use 3% once every other water change.

I use a DWC setup, but I use a Method Which I created.
I call it DWC Deprivation. As soon as i get time I will post My theory.

 

[Stealthy1]

Hey usul every airpump ive seen has a filter. turn it over and look for a cotton disk held in by 3 tabs it should be white if its brown you should clean it or replace it.
Not saying I know for sure yours has it but like I said Ive never seen em without...

 

[usul]

HERE>35% Adv Nut. HyOx.

I use 3% once every other water change.

I use a DWC setup, but I use a Method Which I created.
I call it DWC Deprivation. As soon as i get time I will post My theory.

Thanks man. I'd love to hear about DWC Deprevation when you have a chance!

Hey usul every airpump ive seen has a filter. turn it over and look for a cotton disk held in by 3 tabs it should be white if its brown you should clean it or replace it.
Not saying I know for sure yours has it but like I said Ive never seen em without...

Yes, you're right - thanks! The method for accessing the filter was not obvious but I figured it out. They looked pretty clean but I washed 'em anyway. And, ps, thanks for the tip on how to load larger photos - a few of those coming up...

Okay, here's the latest: All your suggestions prompted me to upgrade the ventilation and fresh air intake to my tent. I ran flexible ducts from the crawl space hatch out to a foundation vent so rather than drawing air in from the crawlspace all air is now coming directly from the great outdoors. Here are some pics of the new ductwork:

Right now, I'm drawing fresh air into the closet, which is sealed off from the rest of the house with weatherstripping, then warming it up with a space heater before it foes in to the tent (I'm using flourescents right now and they don't generate enough heat to pull fresh winter air directly in to the tent). Once I fire up the Halide I'll adjust things again. Also wanted to say I realize all that ductwork sigificantly reduces the efficiency of the fan - but my tent is only 18 cu/ft and the fan is rated at 200CFM so even if efficiency is reduced by 90% air in the tent is still being replaced once every minute. And based on the volume of air I feel coming out the exhaust vent I think it's doing much better than that.

Soooo... everything is looking good right now (yea, I've said that before) - the numbers are:

Air Temp: 75F
RH: 45
Water Temp: 67.8
pH: 5.8
TDS: 360 (I'm taking it easy on the nutes until things are stabilized and the roots have a chance to recover)

The plants are looking good and growth has picked up - although Pebbles is looking unhappy about all the changes as of late. Root growth is strong and water in the res is looking good (yea, I've said that before too). After hitting it hard with the H2O2 over the last few days the plants were showing stress (leaves curling down) so I'm slowly backing off. Application was as high as 15ml/gal right after the res change - 12 hours later it got 10ml/gal and another one of those 12 hours after that. I did a 5ml/gallon dose this morning and in just a bit I'll add that does again. Ultimately, I'd like to get to 2.5ml/gal applied twice a day - a dosage I know the plants are fine with.

I'll post some pics of the plants in a few days. Hygrozyme should arrive on Friday and I'm looking forward to seeing how it works. More soon...

 

[ultrasonic]

LMFAO, looks like you's got a giant slime monster on yer ceiling! I could only wish I had insulation like that

Glad to see you're on top of things as usual I'm also interested in the hygrozyme! I plan on using molasses ASAP, and I hear enzymes are what I want to break it all down. Considering i'm going to be doing the advanced top off method, I should be experimenting with a bactera laden res. I do have some slime now, but it's nothing near worth getting concerned about. As long as it doesn't go crazy, a little slime is a good thing sometimes.

Seems we'll meet for an update sometime this weekend