Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Jon]

BTW!

& Co (my wife) has banned me from growing in 16oz solos ever again!

They look better now than in that photo 3-4 days ago!

But they only way I can bag a kilo of weed out of that tent without Co2 is with lots of light - I ran a 1000w HPS DE 28500k bulb in that very 4x4 tent with 315CMH supplemental light at 5000k. In Dixie cups as well!

Insane.

Then the AC broke and the light timers broke so they seeded.

Still got more grams than I did this grow!

I was in Cambodia when it all failed. like 1500 miles away

But really? It was a pretty stupid idea. Well one way of putting it!

I could say "it was an advanced learning curve" !

But we're setup for this stuff - we fail to safe. In no small part because I happened upon @Bill284 fire saftey thing.

Also yeah I designed it for small commercial from the start.

This grow I think is only the third or fourth harvest out of a tent?

Our other stuff - and only what? another 4-5 harvests? They've been in a more designed room.

We've only been going this for 18 months?

I joined the site 27th October 2022. Same week we started growing.

Looked at a few weed groeing sites.

This one just fit for me.

I generally make good decisions. That was one of them.

Mean that.

Nick

& Co (my wife) has banned me from growing in 16oz solos ever again!

Thank god she’s smarter than you.

 

[Jon]

Anything else about lights is about the spectra range - and honestly?

No one else really understands that apart from maybe 2-3 people on the site.

So really?

Don't spoil my last days here by even arguing the toss.

We grow commercial, we meet with light company people.

You likely don't do either.

#jussayin

For someone who can say that, you should display more expertise and less attitude about your light exposure. I can tell you why every light you suggested can be destroyed and tell you why. But why? I’m not here to shit on anyone’s parade. But this:

Don't spoil my last days here by even arguing the toss.

We grow commercial, we meet with light company people.

You likely don't do either.

Come on man. You’re much much better than this, no? Someone piss you off this morning?

?????

For real, the above was said with love - you know you’re my boy Nick - please don’t misinterpret. I expect you to call me out when required as well. Witness my response to Captain yesterday when he did. Granted, he did it gently and perfectly, but he’d have been right even if he had been a dick about it. See what I mean? This is part of being friends in real life.

 

[Jon]

Random Training Information that may be helpful:

On Deflarfing: I’ll be the first to tell you that I learned this basically from @InTheShed, who is a master. You have seen Shed’s plants. He always gets a ton of nothing but giant colas. He doesn’t harvest crap, or very very little. That’s what I wanted. And I’ve learned that one of the keys to this is the removal of unwanted branches and side growth. Cleaning the undercarriage. Etc. I call it deflarfing.

Those little shoots that are sometimes way numerous are tempting to keep a lot of times. You look at them and say hell, that’s a couple sweet buds, I’ll keep it. And then it’s real easy from there to keep way too much. I just did this exact thing on the big Gorilla Cookies. I should have had far fewer colas, and should have eliminated much of the side branching I kept. This made for a huge and highly bud-laden plant. But none of the buds are big, they’re all small. Which makes some of the lowers which might have been keepers, flarf. I removed a TON of material to hang that plant yesterday, much more than should be necessary. It’s also why she took so long to trim and hang. By contrast, the other of the Gorilla Cookies was very effectively deflarfed, and as a result she is rock hard top to bottom and as good as it gets.

All those shoots rob energy from the sweet buds. The concept of addition by subtraction is what’s in play here. Wait til you see the Trizkit, I’ll be doing her this week. I’ll show before and after. You’ll see I take tons of stuff. And you’ll see the bud factory she is before hand. She will become a better and bigger bud factory after I take a whole lot of garbage off her. The amount of energy takeaway is far far greater than you think I’ve learned. I’ve proven it to myself now over and over again, including this grow. The three gems of this grow are the silver Gorilla Cookies, the Cherry Pie, and the Skywalker. All three have an appropriate amount of colas and were deflated very well. All three have giant, well formed buds for days and hardly if any buds that won’t hit the jars.

When every bud in any plant you grow hits your jars, that plant will yield beautifully for you 99% of the time. It’s the goal of deflarfation. (Lol!!)

I’ve learned if you want the best results and yield this is as important a step as any other aspect of training. When I do the Trizkit I’ll do a pictorial on what I take from each branch. It will all follow the same concept. I believe I’ve figured out the path to Nirvana on this. I’m close. I believe the key ideas are:

- take any shoot going towards the floor
- take any real small bullshit shoot
- take the very outside shoots entirely, leaving the end of the main branch (ie, your main cola) and that biggest main stem of the branch as the outermost thing in the ring and/or branch set
- judiciously select which of the inners to keep or not with space between the buds as a primary consideration factor and number of them equally important

If that’s confusing I will clarify with the Trizkit. She’s the perfect plant for this display and the timing is perfect and what prompted this post.

Anyway, two cents on deflarfing for yield. Important part. Also very personal, like defoliating. This is just how I do it, and I’ve had real good results as I’ve gotten better and better at it. Fwiw.

 

[KeithLemon]

Thanks Jon as you know from last year, I have a problem delarfing I am always afraid I am taking to much but this year I am going to take it seriously. I am going to take my time and try and do it right. I look forward to your display of Trizkit.

 

[NickHardy]

No actually I’ve had an exceptionally good day.

Well apart from a bunch of internecine warfare seems to have been going on in my own journal!

That made me sad. Really sad.

But yeah - about lights? Its true.

Its about the third time I’ve said it in just this journal let alone all my others.

I can’t jump up and down and wave my hands in the air enough it seems to get the point across.

Photons are photons and electrons are electrons

No light company can change that.

So maybe some frustration sure?

But yes - I have taken in real life meetings with light companies. Like the billionaire’s daughter CEO of the light company flirted with me.

Anyone else here?

Didn't think so.

Dollar by watt and draw at the wall - for like every home grower its the best metric. Not some branding exercise like too many people seem to think is “better”

You look at Dr MJ Coco’s site?

Hundreds of lights tested.

And what I say twice is the best light is the safest light.

 

[NickHardy]

Oh and just dropped off the weed from this grow for testing at the llocal place make sure its done by 1st May

 

[con]

No actually I’ve had an exceptionally good day.

Well apart from a bunch of internecine warfare seems to have been going on in my own journal!

That made me sad. Really sad.

But yeah - about lights? Its true.

Its about the third time I’ve said it in just this journal let alone all my others.

I can’t jump up and down and wave my hands in the air enough it seems to get the point across.

Photons are photons and electrons are electrons

No light company can change that.

So maybe some frustration sure?

But yes - I have taken in real life meetings with light companies. Like the billionaire’s daughter CEO of the light company flirted with me.

Anyone else here?

Didn't think so.

Dollar by watt and draw at the wall - for like every home grower its the best metric. Not some branding exercise like too many people seem to think is “better”

You look at Dr MJ Coco’s site?

Hundreds of lights tested.

And what I say twice is the best light is the safest light.

i checked out the Dr Mj channel and theres a lot of info & pretty detailed i liked the vid of the FC-E6500 lots of good info but think they need to test with reflective walls & ceiling makes me wonder what readings they would get, i'm guessing they would be a tad higher but still a lot of detailed info

 

[NickHardy]

i checked out the Dr Mj channel and theres a lot of info & pretty detailed i liked the vid of the FC-E6500 lots of good info but think they need to test with reflective walls & ceiling makes me wonder what readings they would get, i'm guessing they would be a tad higher but still a lot of detailed info

Its an interesting point - the reflective walls bit.

Anything bigger than a tent reflective walls are just such a tiny influence I eon’t bother again. Just a reasonably reflective white paint is fine I reckon.

Then you get into the cost of addional side ligjhting versus the cost of the whatever reflective thing you want to use - and “Panda Film” is it? That stuff is a massive fire hazard I understand?

 

[MedScientist]

I've looked at Spider Farmer too. Seem very decent.

They're about the same price per watt (a really, like really good way of thinking about lights is the number of watts divided by the USD cost delivered fitted) DJ MJ Coco - google him - great YouTube channel on lights. You haven't visited his YouTube channel? Honestly - what are you doing buying a grow light? Its a basic. Its great.

There is no LED nor HPS nor CMH light company that is fully vertically integrated.

Gavita? I'll use them as an example for HPS and CMH - no problem with them. They make/made the best of those lights. Didn't make the bulbs the fitting ever. Mostly you'd want the Dutch Philips making you fittings. Now they get manufactured by a Chinese company based in Shenzhen. Just across the Pearl River Estuary from Hong Kong. Where they make iPhones and other stuff. I know the name the company now makes Gavitas for them. (German firm I think originally?) I usesd/use Gavitas for HPS and CMH but they don't say Gavita. An I ain't telling you who becasue that's commercially sensitive to them.

LED's oh wow way more murky!

So if Samsung or LG started making grow lights? They could do it, vertically integrated. Especially LG

Probably they made grow lights inhouse they'd be the best grow lights in the world.

Like easy. I'd pick LG for the win - especially for organic growers

Said it before and I'll say it again - what I got like 56 hours? I'll bang the drum til then!

LED grow light companies don't make lights

They assemble lights.

Just like "build your own PC"

You pick the parts, the components from a not actually very big list.

Your diodes - Samsung is the leader here. SO they say. We have LM301B in our Mars Hydro FC6500's We have Samsung LM301H in our broken Meijiu 1000w used in this grow. I need circle back to Meijiu in this post. The LM302B that Migro say use in their higher wattage lights?

False economy. They will be failed diodes and their electrical draw way higher - so that light that seems a little bit too good a price to be true? Betcha its using Samsung LM302's They made the number bigger as a sort of trick.

Like CPU's you sort of print diodes. The difference between an i3, i5, i7 and now i9 processor in your laptop or desktop running windows? Just how successful the printing was. Shit ones get tuned to i3's etc.

Diodes the same. They are printed and graded. In the diode business they're assigned "bin" numbers. Like everything in manufacturing really.

So say I want a Samsung LM301H diode at 3000 Kelvin for my banging mid flower period? (I could choose in about 100-200 kelvin increments between 2800 Kelvin and 6000 Kelvin) Higher kelvin generally held to be better for veg - like a CMH and lower better for flower like an HPS) I can then coose between say ten "bins" the standard or higher quality.

Honestly - I posted this way back when maybe like June 2023 when I had lots of meetings with light companies.

Now Meijiu have on their limited website "top bin LED's 'cause I wrote it for them. Why I'm particularly annoyed about my broken light!

I actyually love the Electrobridge diodes in the Mars FCE series for veg.

We get mpre space and go bigger I'd probably just get a bunch of them for veg - just seem so kind on the planst. We have one looks like its gonna die? Those FCE4800's so good.

So that's the diodes covered in as basic as I can make it - I actually designed a light. I could sell you a light called "The Nick Hardy 5x5 Light" I need 2-3 months get it delivered to North America. and you need pre pay me I dunno $500 USD.

I will have top bin LED's, a sick cool logo and a pretty box. It would for a 5x5 run at like 650w, a clicky twisty knob for granular , be whatever colour I fancy on the day. Probably orange. The driver would be designed to be detachable and the connectors the best quality of any light.

Hey Meijiu make nearly every light home growers use! Everything beginning with V I think, Spider Farmer, Phi one!

They make I'm pretty certain all of them. I've met the owners of Miejiu. Flirted with the owners daughter in a Thai hotel room whilst wearing grow light eye protection sunglasses.

There were 6 other Chinese people in the room at the time, we already had a room! But yeah! Nah not my cup of chai!

So the diodes we got covered apart from LG - they make some more interesting type of LEDs called OLED's Now Samsung make them now too - along with micro LED's - Organic LED's I make this point more as half joke about them being more organic! You spend more than say $100 on your phone? Or $200 your TV? You're using Samsung or LG diodes. The only games in town. You spend more than $500 your phone or $1000 your TV/ only question these days is it LG OLED or Samsung Micro LED?

Some Medicgrow or whatwver? Whatever company you want to name? They do not make their own diodes.

If they could they'd be selling TV's not grow lights.

Now the Second Bit

The driver.

Like old school? Think of it as the transformer? The power brick.

You can choose these too. And guess what no grow light company makes these either!

Mars sort of kinda claim they do but they don't quite say it full on in the literature. Anyone owns a Mars light made post 2019 or so will tell you it says like Apple style "Designed by Mars made by LG Lighting Solutions" or similar. I'll take a phtos of one tomorrow. - this is why I think a full grow light solution made by LG would be amazing - but then Samsung would be incredible too - I just like LG for the OLED thin for organic!

The best drivers most use? Meanwell. But when you design you own light you can choose as well. Its just a menu - and how many you want. I'd go separated drivers for warm light at 2800k or so for flower, and another driver at 6000k for veg. The reds you'd do with a profile between the nears and fars that tie into both dimmers. You want the reds in veg and flower but honestly?

You're growing in a 5x5 tent! You don't need to think about your red light spectra blend!

Finally! the third and final bit!

Aluminum bars to hang it all off.

That's how LED grow lights and a bit on HPS and CMH are made.

The best light is in order of importance:

#1 The safest light

#2 The best watt per dollar - and you need to think about your OpEx here as well - like the difference between LM301's and LM302's the 2's cost more electrons for their photons

#3 The best customer service and reparability for where you are. It varies - the more home grow/promsumer brands that sponsor here seem like they can offer really good service in North America -if you're in I dunno! Columbia - there is a grower here on the site growing weed in the elevated mountains of Columbia btw! Yeah probably you might want to think about growing outdoors rather than risking need an LED grow light customer service! Plenty people here can fix stuff with LED lights. Got skills. @Absorber plus many more. BTW - after the power leaves the drivers in our 1000w light to the light bars? Those aluminum bars the diodes are glued to you're only looking for 50-55v - volts.

#4 Did I say the safest light yet?

#5 The prettiest light

"The Nick Hardy 5x5"

No joke - I could do it!

I really can't be bothered to - unless I was ordering 20 for me! Its the MOQ - minimum order quantity. 20 lights.

I'm a ways out from ordering that many lights! Oh and if I did? I'd actually veg under CMH and flower under LED.

But that's because I'm a bit fancy and the CMH helps add heat which I like in veg with Co2.

But yeah.

There is no better brand light.

Anyone wants to build their own light company I'll hook you up.

Diodes

Drivers

Aluminium bars.

You don’t believe me? On the above!?

Look I ran detailed A/B testing on a Mard Hydro FC 6500 light bar before I finished this post.

I documented it too.

Pics or it never happened?

Fair call.

From the man lives in an Eames lounge chair.

Btw - that bar runs at 97v.

But its a single driver light. So halve it?

Where so you get?

‘Bout my voltage given above for two drivers actually 3 because that has UV too which is only 150w - so I realise you probably want 40-45v from driver to light bars

That - tremendously amuses me.

The Universe delivers, again.

Anyone but anyone, Buelller! Struggled over the finish line with me on that posy?

I probably owe you a 650w light!

But yeah - that's like as good knowledge and from real world experience you will read from anyone about grow lights - that isn't actually trying to sell you anything

56 hours to go?!

Night,

Nick

WooHoo! I have been following along for a while! I ran several small LED Grows years ago, but I feel the technology has improved quite a bit since then.

I see many of you growing Worthy Buds with LED'S NOW! I am playing with the idea of getting a small tent... say 32" x 32" for personal use. I would want to put the best light for wall to wall Buds...

Which of our Sponsored lights would YOU recommend to meet this size?

 

[con]

Its an interesting point - the reflective walls bit.

Anything bigger than a tent reflective walls are just such a tiny influence I eon’t bother again. Just a reasonably reflective white paint is fine I reckon.

Then you get into the cost of addional side ligjhting versus the cost of the whatever reflective thing you want to use - and “Panda Film” is it? That stuff is a massive fire hazard I understand?

never heard of panda film, yeah kinda hard to test for all grow room situations but atleast they give one a good idea of whats going on & lots of other info, maybe one day i'll have a grow room but for now tents are best for me atm

 

[NickHardy]

WooHoo! I have been following along for a while! I ran several small LED Grows years ago, but I feel the technology has improved quite a bit since then.

I see many of you growing Worthy Buds with LED'S NOW! I am playing with the idea of getting a small tent... say 32" x 32" for personal use. I would want to put the best light for wall to wall Buds...

Which of our Sponsored lights would YOU recommend to meet this size?

Probably for a 2.5’x2.5’ - is that what you mean?

An @ViparSpectra 1500w Pro would great - think the 300w version even more perfect.

What you reckon Val?

never heard of panda film, yeah kinda hard to test for all grow room situations but atleast they give one a good idea of whats going on & lots of other info, maybe one day i'll have a grow room but for now tents are best for me atm

Like everything in life - make your decisions based on works for you.

Growing weed?

There’s so many ways to bake the cake.

Its such a forgiving plant.

I think SIPs say are just fantastic. It gets hard where I live because the res temp.

But more temperate climates totally different.

So never gonna tell you one way or the highway!

What works for you works for you
- I’m happy for anyone. You know what you have to work with. Heat is our enemy - for others its the cold!
Different strokes, right?

Same page.

 

[InTheShed]

I call it deflarfing.

Some folks call it a sling blade delarfing, you call it a kaiser blade deflarfing!

 

[MedScientist]

Probably for a 2.5’x2.5’ - is that what you mean?

An @ViparSpectra 1500w Pro would great - think the 300w version even more perfect.

What you reckon Val?



Like everything in life - make your decisions based on works for you.

Growing weed?

There’s so many ways to bake the cake.

Its such a forgiving plant.

I think SIPs say are just fantastic. It gets hard where I live because the res temp.

But more temperate climates totally different.

So never gonna tell you one way or the highway!

What works for you works for you
- I’m happy for anyone. You know what you have to work with. Heat is our enemy - for others its the cold!
Different strokes, right?

Same page.

WooHoo! Thank you for your response!

I think I could narrow down my search if I knew the Sweet Spot of par value?

 

[NickHardy]

WooHoo! Thank you for your response!

I think I could narrow down my search if I knew the Sweet Spot of par value?

Hehe!

Lets all lob beer glasses into the bar like Begbie!

Its difficult to answer because everyone got an opinion on that!

Indoor, or outdoor!

Co2 and heat levels and dryness to dry get to a decent VPD.

Soil or hydro

Organic or salts?

How many times a day can you realistically water them in hydro for sure.

So much, so many metrics, and so many great growers round here do it in so many different ways.

A 2.5x2.5 tent, me in hydro I'd think (and I promise I'm knocking off a bunch for just I am a little bit more cray cray!)

300w, gives like close on with like the right light - 8-900PPFD/Par umol or whatever In the middle. I'd run 4 plants in 3 litre pots, like 0.75 gallons.

Some mushroom bags for a little extra Co2 - you'll need it because that tent that small with a 300w light is gonna run a little hot, just even those little hanging bags will help take the edge off.

And from say week three flower to finish I'd be watering minimum twice a day at like a 2.4-2.6 EC

So yeah!

That;s what I'd do!

Plenty would do it differently - and I can do it differently. But that's probably what I'd do in that space.

Its like my default. Sorta!

I mean if I was actually gonna do it? Because I've never done it before properly?

I'd do a single plant in an organic LOS SIP! And probably aim the same PAR - 850 PPFD is what I'd aim for. Actually 888 but just because its lucky in Cantonese and Putonghua. That would be a sweet spot.

But it is a bit of a tough question to answer because there are so many different equally correct answers.

View media item 2692652

 

[NickHardy]

Ah man - @MedScientist ha

Aww how am I now gonna figure out a LOS SIP at 888 PPFD in a 2.5'x2.5' space into my life?

Did @Azimuth put you up to this?!

Ha,

Azi?!

But yeah -

That would be - in like total size 5 gallon bucket SIP (Including the res) one plant. Photo and some way better LST skills than I have and scrog? A photo obvs.

Yep that's probably the best thing.

Well for me.

Your best choice gonna be informed by what options you have!

 

[KeithLemon]

I wish I understood lights all I know is the little 150w light I am using is working well the best I can tell.

 

[InTheShed]

I wish I understood lights all I know is the little 150w light I am using is working well the best I can tell.

Seems like there might be an addition to your light collection any day now since they juiced the OTM prizes!

 

[KeithLemon]

We will see That would mean I need to grow an auto in the winter. Never count your chickens before the eggs hatch. Thats the old saying and I believe in it.

 

[MedScientist]

Probably for a 2.5’x2.5’ - is that what you mean?

An @ViparSpectra 1500w Pro would great - think the 300w version even more perfect.

What you reckon Val?



Like everything in life - make your decisions based on works for you.

Growing weed?

There’s so many ways to bake the cake.

Its such a forgiving plant.

I think SIPs say are just fantastic. It gets hard where I live because the res temp.

But more temperate climates totally different.

So never gonna tell you one way or the highway!

What works for you works for you
- I’m happy for anyone. You know what you have to work with. Heat is our enemy - for others its the cold!
Different strokes, right?

Same page.

WooHoo!

I (was) thinking I needed to go with the multi-bar lights to spread out the par, but I the lens to evenly spread it out, and fill the space at 800 to 900 par (@ 14 ") with only 150 watts !

I found a journal using the ViparSpectra xs1500 @DV8 , doing a McFreakingAwesome job with it!

The Biggest challenge will be trying to grow 1 plant that will fit in a 2.5 x 2.5! But Watching the Quadlining threads gives me Hope!

 

[Jon]

Thanks Jon as you know from last year, I have a problem delarfing I am always afraid I am taking to much but this year I am going to take it seriously. I am going to take my time and try and do it right. I look forward to your display of Trizkit.

Thanks @KeithLemon, I’ll show you the best I can. Shed has a number of mini and informal tutorials on this in that endless journal of his - if you ask him I bet he can tell you where. To be clear, I am saying he taught me the basics. I can’t say if my method mirrors his. He tends to be better at it and has more well explained reasons for why he took this or that. He also does a few other crazy things I don’t do yet. It’s a work in progress. But just so you know where to find assistance from someone really good at it.