Increasing yield with defoliation indoors: What's it mean? How to do it?

[Bassman59]

I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I have decided to do a side by side comparison..I'm gonna try soil first then...Next round will be in DWC. I might even make a journal this time....:icon_roll

On the subject of side by side comparison: Unfortunately it is not as easy as that. Defoliation allows plants to intertwine. It is not advisable to defoliate and train one and allow the neighboring plant to leaf out and get tall. The leafy one will shade out direct and reflective light and the comparison would be invalid. Keep this in mind when trying side by side. Most of us don't have the room to completely separate and maintain identical conditions to properly do side by side.

What I have found however is growers that have been growing their same strains for many harvests and have their grow down pat, know what to expect from each of their grows, try one full grow using this technique and compare the results. One such grower was already averaging 10z per plant in his 10 foot high grow room and after using this technique improved his yield to over 14oz per plant.

 

[crashnfool]

On the subject of side by side comparison: Unfortunately it is not as easy as that. Defoliation allows plants to intertwine. It is not advisable to defoliate and train one and allow the neighboring plant to leaf out and get tall. The leafy one will shade out direct and reflective light and the comparison would be invalid. Keep this in mind when trying side by side. Most of us don't have the room to completely separate and maintain identical conditions to properly do side by side.

I do not plan on putting them literally side by side... I have the room to try along side my regular grow... I have been paying close attention and I am planning on using some chicken wire to help with plant formation as she grows... Kinda excited to try this now...

 

[vangs]

I'll try to answer with a combination of what I learned from reading everything I could by a guy that has defoliated for 30yrs and what I've learned from experience.

I don't lollipop. But, at the same time, taking the really tiny bottom branches that won't yield even 5g is fine and wont slow any growth or misdirect energy as you put it. That being said we don't lollipop when using this technique. We also don't really grow main colas. Not in terms of what we're used to seeing per se. The idea of all of this is to grow more buds total, and make all those small popcorn buds become medium good size buds we're happy to trim.

Another thing to think about is we're never shocking the plant. When we strip early in veg we still leave the small fans that are developing at the tops of branches. This doesn't shock the plant, as it's still in a young grow more nodes/branches stage. It does however make those new nodes come sooner, and thus more leaf is grow quite rapidly. Within days they are fully releafed and even more than before. In flower, when we defoliate, we still are not pulling 100% of leaves. We are taking fan leaf that is fully developed, with a reasonable stem, not attached to a newly developed bud or node that has yet to make it's own leaves. Again, this doesn't stress nor shock them. There are still plenty of leaves on the plant. But we're sending tons more light all over the place and this promotes all facets of growth. Yet defoliating will put a near halt to stretch when done during that period, so it can be used to control height. But it doesn't seem to affect bud development at this stage whatsoever.

In the end, if you use what I've described in the first posts of this thread fully, I am a believer that your yield will be higher than a lollipoped plant. It may take a few grows to dial yourself in. Know your strain, have your other growing conditions down pat. From there it's just learning how they react, when to defoliate, how tall to grow in veg, when to defoliate in veg, when to flip, and how to support the entire plants bud development rather than just the large stuff at the top.

I started doing this kinda halfheartedly on one grow and started learning right from the start. My 1st grow saw better yield. My 2nd grow was done better and saw better yield, my 3rd attempt at this, saw the magical 10oz from a single plant and I knew I made mistakes and what they were. And so the learning curve grows (pun intended).

im going to give it a try, i have my next grow started about 1 week ago soo this wil be a good time to try this method. i wanted to ask you something else. i noticed in your journals that you also use the super cropping technique. where you snap the branches so the bend and grow side ways instead of up, eventually giving the even canoppy.. is that part of the defoliatin technique??? or is that something you do because you dont have a big enouigh grow space or tall enough,etc,etc whatever the reason maybe?? in your last grow, the kosher kush theirs a branch that runes from right to left and it looks like it been snaped 3 or 4 times..

 

[Bassman59]

im going to give it a try, i have my next grow started about 1 week ago soo this wil be a good time to try this method. i wanted to ask you something else. i noticed in your journals that you also use the super cropping technique. where you snap the branches so the bend and grow side ways instead of up, eventually giving the even canoppy.. is that part of the defoliatin technique??? or is that something you do because you dont have a big enouigh grow space or tall enough,etc,etc whatever the reason maybe?? in your last grow, the kosher kush theirs a branch that runes from right to left and it looks like it been snaped 3 or 4 times..

Last grow a branch with 3-4 bends was much less than many others! I had some with 8-10! But last grow was unusual for this technique and my grow space. The height being the biggest issue, I let them veg way too tall. I had to keep crack'n em over because my light was at max height and they were too close and I also needed to get some width out of the reflector.

Normally, we're not really striving for everything bent over. We do use lateral bending to widen and shape. We also do want to super crop when a top or branch of any sort is 6" or more above the rest. Each grow may be a bit different in this respect. It's all part of how we adapt to the conditions present and in some cases we'll bend more than in others.

I know the branch you are talking about that had 3-4 bends right in front. What you may not have been able to see is that branch went on another 12-16" at least into the canopy and had some massive bud on it. Now when I say massive, I don't mean 2L soda or anything like that, but just loads of big bud over it's length. No idea how much I pulled from that branch but I'm sure it was near or over an ounce dry.

 

[Smokemupm8]

Nice article and ground work mate!!
I take this thread as fairly accurate IMO, as I attempted my first LST grow, NOT MY FIRST GROW - Just LST!
Anyway, normally i remove a few fans over Veg and flower if light is being blocked from direct light. This grow, as my plant created 13 Primary branches, i had to set them out in the limited space i use, well its 8.5ft tallx4.5ft wide - but my plant got big fast and consumed the space!
Throughout this grow I constantly removed leaves for light penetration and ive taken over 3 ounces of wet plant material from my plant over her grow. After removing some large fan leaves, i stagger where i trim them from, the plant, as you ve shown, normally after a few days would have made more growth of the shoots on the branches and then some smaller leaves are made and over time, they become fairly large themselves.
Ill post some pics of my girl at day 54 flower, ive taken about a foot of branch/leaf off each branch and stripped some in her centre. I should have taken a bit more in hind sight.
Ive seen some great super/monster cropping of plants, which i sort of liken to your bending of branches..The plants will be ok, i just dont feel comfortable doing this to my stems!!
But i know theyre capable of doing well, and looking at your growing style, I dont remove as much as you did as showed on them few Veg pics when you showed Before/after stripping, But i do see the results and how it may very well be a great way to maximise your bud gain over leaf material..
I doubt it may affect the strength of the final smoke, as long as there are adequate leaves during flower and the plant is healthy it should create enough THC as trichs etc are produced, sure some may say about solar panels,Photosynth etc; But i see youre just showing how it is entirely possible to leave a minimum of veg growth to gain more light on bud sights and therefore hopefully an increased growth of the plant in preparation for flower.. I like your work I will be applying some sort of trimming/training with my next grow, but im looking at a vert grow and going to try manipulate it just a little to hopefully get a gain.
NICE POST's MATE WE NEED PIONEERS IN THIS FIELD TO SHOW THE WAY... Smokemup

 

[vangs]

Last grow a branch with 3-4 bends was much less than many others! I had some with 8-10! But last grow was unusual for this technique and my grow space. The height being the biggest issue, I let them veg way too tall. I had to keep crack'n em over because my light was at max height and they were too close and I also needed to get some width out of the reflector.

Normally, we're not really striving for everything bent over. We do use lateral bending to widen and shape. We also do want to super crop when a top or branch of any sort is 6" or more above the rest. Each grow may be a bit different in this respect. It's all part of how we adapt to the conditions present and in some cases we'll bend more than in others.

I know the branch you are talking about that had 3-4 bends right in front. What you may not have been able to see is that branch went on another 12-16" at least into the canopy and had some massive bud on it. Now when I say massive, I don't mean 2L soda or anything like that, but just loads of big bud over it's length. No idea how much I pulled from that branch but I'm sure it was near or over an ounce dry.

thanks for clearling that up for me, no i cant see the branch go 10to12 inch more but i no what you mean cuz ive stared at that picture for like 20 minutes. lol.. is it normal for alot of the leaves to kind of wither upwards like a heat stress issue the day off the major defoiliation? i didnt take off all of it but atleast 3/4th of them so she looks naked.

 

[Bassman59]

When the reach for the light that's a good thing. But wither upwards? Not getting your drift there.

 

[vangs]

When the reach for the light that's a good thing. But wither upwards? Not getting your drift there.

like the leaves wrinkle alittle on the outline of each leave and curl upwards. it hapened to me on my first grow an found out its from temps being too hot. and last night i did a major defoliation, and today the leaves looked like that. my temps wernt high. stayd around 81F so idk if its a side effect of the defoliation method, maybe cuz ther light shines harder on the plant since the fan leaves arnt shielding it.

 

[Bassman59]

It's not a side effect of defoliation. I'd be looking at nute burn and heat possibilities. May not be a big issue, but check to make sure.

 

[donpaul.p]

id agree, id have to say its a heat issue, the only problem i have found is with very young plants, if i have these to close to the light then it bleaches the leaves, this only happens with young plants of a couple of weeks old

 

[BootUmAll]

Happened upon this thread at the perfect time in my horticultural evolution. Looking forward to learning from this group after catching up on reading (just popped pg. 1) but was moved to join the thread and grow?

 

[Bassman59]

Nice to seeya here BootumAll. Getting ready for work but I'll try to post some pics of my current grow in the next day or two with some thoughts and observances.

 

[Popcorn]

Just read through the whole journal Bass and it is full of some amazing info on defol, think it would be hard to go wrong with the likes of all of you here to guide people along.

+REPS

Question?: I was just wondering i currently have 6 plants in a 1.2m Tent i am using the GLR routine under 200w CFL for Veg And will use a 600w Dual Spec HPS and 200w red CFL for flower, i will be using the cfl as upwards vertical lighting so the bottom half of the grow room will have its own light source basically, and the 600w will be used as standard, and these will all be done in 6-7.5 litre airpots, So can you use High-yield Defoliation without bending the plants, as i will have 2 sources of light i shouldnt have 2 many node areas that arent receiving light, my plants are predominantly indica strains which is why im underlighting anyway, just wondering on your thoughts as i am considering trying this without bending the plants but i dont want to strip half and not the other half as unless you think that would be the best idea.

Thanks great read.

Subbed

 

[Bassman59]

Popcorn, Thanks for joining in on the thread. Your questions are challenging. Challenging because you have 6 plants in small pots in a small tent and the supplemental lighting is lite. I don't do soil so you'll have to forgive some of my ignorance. But are soil plants limited in growth by being root bound quite a bit? I don't rightly know how much this effects thing. But it could be an issue no?

Also, it is my belief the 200w of supplemental lights will be of minimal if any real help. The light penetration will be quite short in terms of lumen to distance. The next issue that arises (but may be countered by the smaller pots?) is the 600w hps only has a 29" optimal distance range on avg. That's 73.66cm. Now take away 17cm (7 inches) of too close to the plant away, and you are left with 57cm (22.5") of growth height for optimal range of lumen delivery.

I don't have any math reference to cfl's and lumen-distance delivery. So my thoughts on that part are not backed by anything much. Yet I'm sure you can understand a 200w light just is not going to penetrate 1.2m across the mid section of the plant. The parts of the plants close to the cfl will tend to grow in that direction towards the cfl, but may also hinder the depth penetration even more as a result.

As for bending, consider what we're really trying to achieve when we bend. You've seen me mention using this to get em wide. And wide may be a real issue for you with 6 plants in a 1.2m tent (basically 4'x4'). But again the smart pots may keep them smaller to some degree too. But what about your top colas? If your top colas are 6-8" (or roughly 20cm) taller than the majority of the plant canopy, then you have to keep the 600w hps that same distance higher than the biggest part of the canopy and bud development. If you somehow control that cola to the 22" max height of optimal hps lumen for the plant, then you will only deliver 21k lumen at the majority of plant canopy vs being able to deliver roughly 66k lumen to the entire canopy if you bent that cola over to even out the canopy. That TWO THIRDS LESS lumen at the best part of the plant.

Now don't misunderstand, there are folks out there that could easily do as you mention using 600w hps and not bending, while using high defoliation techniques. But those people will for the most part be vegging a short period, which is after all, fine. But if they are not bending their tops colas, chances are they are missing out on some real production OR they are hanging vertical lights with little sq footage restrictions. They can surround plants with 600w verts and get lots of light top to bottom. But for people like you and me with area restrictions, this is for the most part impossible.

Fear of bending? If this is the issue, I can totally understand. It wasn't until I saw someone manhandle a branch and do it that I felt more comfortable trying it. And after a few tries it got easier. Now I don't even think about it. Here's what I do:
1. With thumb and middle finger of on hand I grab the branch.
2. With other hand I give support directly underneath. (I actually 1 hand it now but this is a beginners help)
3. With thumb and middle finger I firmly begin to twist (a little squeeze may help but not needed) the branch in one direction until I hear or feel it crack.
4. I keep rotating slightly, (imagine what a ships rope looks like) to twist the strands of the branch and start bending it the direction I want until I reach the position I want.

If the branch is a thicker, strong branch you probably wont need any additional support and it will hold this position. If not strong enough, I just hang a strand of string from the roof of the tent and support the branch for 1-3 days. It will become very strong at that bend location and fully support the bent branch. Alternatively you can have some strands of string running across the tent and support the branch in this manner. You'll also notice within hours the end of the bent branch will turn 90 degrees upwards reaching for the light. As will any off shoots from the branch.

It seems scary, but it doesnt take long to be a master at it. Just dont rush the bend. Also if at any time you really break a branch hard, but it's still attached, you can literally tape the wound just like a bandaid and in a few days it will heal and be stronger than ever.

I hope this gives you some insight and helps your plan. Feel free to post any other questions. I'll do my best.

 

[spring2012]

Bassman,
Great info but I was also drawn to your knowledge of lights. You should start another thread for lighting!!

 

[Bassman59]

Bassman,
Great info but I was also drawn to your knowledge of lights. You should start another thread for lighting!!

I'm the wrong guy for that. All I know is maybe 1 level beyond the basics. And really, imho, that's just knowledge we should all learn if we want to do this seriously to the best of our ability.

 

[spring2012]

I'm learning! You just have a good way of explaining the information!

 

[Popcorn]

Thanks for all the info Bassman just trying to work out how i can put into practice, but thinking maybe best to leave it for this grow and then look at doing this in a separate room alongside my next grow and then will be able to put everything from here into practice from start to finish, i will be doing some defol no matter what but just not loads.

thanks again

Popcorn

 

[GigaGrew]

Thanks for all the info Bassman just trying to work out how i can put into practice, but thinking maybe best to leave it for this grow and then look at doing this in a separate room alongside my next grow and then will be able to put everything from here into practice from start to finish, i will be doing some defol no matter what but just not loads.

thanks again

Popcorn

generally i believe there should be a certain order to attaining grow god status. now its not really an exact order as some are swappable, but you get the idea

choose a location

play with different medium types/grow methods till you find the one for you (for me its hydroganics if it works as i hope, if not im dwc)
^this generally goes hand in hand with nutrient choice.

choose your final lighting type (ive played around with a whole bunch of stuff, but im currently settled on hps and 6500k cfl's..i have learned to hate t5 type lights as they are bulky, heavy and fragile...my next move will probably be Ceramic metal halide, which replace flouro's compact flouro's metal halide AND hps. one bulb does all and is cheap and long lasting and makes less heat!)

choose your final strain. for most of us who just grow for personal consumption or one single brand sales. there is 1 plant out there that is perfect for you.

once you have got all that dialled in, then you think about overclocking your grow with things like supercrop, lst, topping, bending, defoliation e.t.c

then you have a perfect grow system.

 

[Popcorn]

Thanks Gig, yeah at the minute i am using 600w HPS, 2x 200w CFL 1xblue 1xred, they will be in 10l air-pots was gunna be 7.5 but think 10l will be a little better for me, just gunna do a nice soil grow at the minute, i will defoliate a bit but quite like this idea so am going to keep reading this journal and follow you people that are already running it and then next time i will set-it up in a separate tent and then i can give my full attention to them aswell as having my normal set-up running to make sure i end up with some at the end, just means i can play around without sacrificing anything, if something was to happen.

Thanks all