Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[Azimuth]

None of that is Em's advice. You've got yourself so twisted around you just need to get reset.

Em will likely disagree, but I would bottom water by sitting the pot in a saucer of water for 10-15 minutes. Let it soak up as much as it wants in that period and then remove the rest of the water. Then, let the larger pot dry out completely before watering it again, excpet for the light watering/misting to keep the feeder roots engaged. The moist middle and the moist bottom will even out the drier mix in between and give you a shot at a relatively consistent wetness.

THEN LET IT DRY.

Once you are reset you can start following the rules before making up your own since that is what has gotten you in trouble up till now.

 

[bluter]

I did not have a moisture probe until Friday, so Saturday was the first time I was able to properly measure the moisture inside of the pots.

those things are useless. they do not return accurate info. not one proper grower uses them. you should learn how to water and feed proper instead.

 

[CBDMed]

None of that is Em's advice. You've got yourself so twisted around you just need to get reset.

Em will likely disagree, but I would bottom water by sitting the pot in a saucer of water for 10-15 minutes. Let it soak up as much as it wants in that period and then remove the rest of the water. Then, let the larger pot dry out completely before watering it again, excpet for the light watering/misting to keep the feeder roots engaged. The mosit middle and the moist bottom will even out the drier mix in between and give you a shot at a relatively consistent wetness.

THEN LET IT DRY.

Once you are reset you can start following the rules before making up your own since that is what has gotten you in trouble up till now.

Oy.
I seriously thought about soaking them in water for 15 minutes. And I almost did that.

Yes, my plan was to get the water down to the bottom, and then do a light watering of the top spreader roots every 3 days or so, until the top syncs back up with the bottom.
(I don't know which thread it was, but that is what Em advised me to do somewhere, on some thread.)

So it looks like bottom-soaking would have been a better solution to get the water to the bottom of the pot.
Sorry.

 

[CBDMed]

Hi Bluter.

those things are useless. they do not return accurate info. not one proper grower uses them. you should learn how to water and feed proper instead.

Thanks. Where would I learn to water and feed proper without a moisture probe?

 

[bluter]

Hi Bluter.

Thanks. Where would I learn to water and feed proper without a moisture probe?

read through the links i posted. that is em's tutorials on how to water / feed. don't over think it. you'll get yourself so twisted you could lose the grow. let the plants tell you what is happening.

 

[Emilya Green]

You are being too stingy with the water. Look at this picture:

3x the diameter of these plants would span the surface on a 1 gallon container. Stop being so cautious and water these cups to full runoff. Saturate that soil and then wait 10 minutes and saturate it again. Give them water top, bottom and sideways. Then, sit on your hands for 4 or 5 days and see how long it takes these plants to drain all of that water, before you water again.

 

[CBDMed]

Hi Bluter.

read through the links i posted. that is em's tutorials on how to water / feed. don't over think it. you'll get yourself so twisted you could lose the grow. let the plants tell you what is happening.

Thank you so much.
Yes, I hope to get time to re-read her articles soon.

 

[CBDMed]

Thank you everyone for your gracious and generous advice.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, EMILY! THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED TO KNOW!!!

You are being too stingy with the water. Look at this picture:

3x the diameter of these plants would span the surface on a 1 gallon container. Stop being so cautious and water these cups to full runoff. Saturate that soil and then wait 10 minutes and saturate it again. Give them water top, bottom and sideways. Then, sit on your hands for 4 or 5 days and see how long it takes these plants to drain all of that water, before you water again.

I will try to do just exactly that, right now.

THANK YOU AGAIN.

 

[Azimuth]

You are being too stingy with the water. Look at this picture:

3x the diameter of these plants would span the surface on a 1 gallon container. Stop being so cautious and water these cups to full runoff. Saturate that soil and then wait 10 minutes and saturate it again. Give them water top, bottom and sideways. Then, sit on your hands for 4 or 5 days and see how long it takes these plants to drain all of that water, before you water again.

I think he is more concerned about the watering strategy in the big pot with the designer soil.

In the cups he can see that the soil is still moist about half way down. I'd agree with a full watering on those once they drink all the water in there now.

 

[Emilya Green]

I think he is more concerned about the watering strategy in the big pot with the designer soil.

In the cups he can see that the soil is still moist about half way down. I'd agree with a full watering on those once they drink all the water in there now.

In that big container I am curious if there is even a flow through rate... designing soil is not easy; I certainly can't do it. I use recipes and I don't improvise.

 

[Azimuth]

In that big container I am curious if there is even a flow through rate... designing soil is not easy; I certainly can't do it. I use recipes and I don't improvise.

Right. But he's into it now so trying to make the best of the situation. Won't be ideal, but I'm sure he can get it to a decent harvest and have learned some lessons he can apply to the next round.

 

[CBDMed]

@Emilya , @Azimuth , thank you both very, very much.
If nothing else, I am a total 100% believer in up-potting now.

About the Solo Cups:
Yes, I was prepared to check them every few hours for the next few days, and wait until they started to wilt before watering to runoff. But then Em said to stop being stingy with water (????) and water them to runoff (up, down, and sideways) twice, ten minutes apart (and you said to go with Em' advice), so I did that right then.
Then she says to leave them alone for 4-5 days, so I plan to do that.

About the Big Pots:
Yes, I am trying to make the best of the situation.
The original situation was that I have only grown a few times, indoors, with bagged soil, in the States--only I could not find bagged soil here, and everyone said, "Do as the Colombians do." And the advice I got here from the Colombians was to plant directly in that black soil (which is very heavy clay). And you saw how the first batch turned out.
So then you helped me with a provisional soil (Round #2 Soil)--and it was only a week after that, that I was able to find bagged soil online (and even then I had to have it shipped).
I have never made soil before, and I would not have chosen to do it. I only did it because I had no reasonable alternatives.
I am much happier paying for a bag of premix, opening it, and using it! (And if I could get Subcool's Super Soil in bags I would buy that bagged also, to save time).
However, I am also VERY glad for the opportunity to be learning so much, and I consider myself very blessed to have the benefit of such expert advice.
So, thank you again.

Right. But he's into it now so trying to make the best of the situation. Won't be ideal, but I'm sure he can get it to a decent harvest and have learned some lessons he can apply to the next round.

Yes, exactly.
Yes, I would love to nurse these babies to a decent harvest, if possible.
However, mostly I am hoping to treat this like a science experiment, so I can understand how cannabis roots "think" (so to speak).
I think what I am MOST concerned with is to understand exactly what it is that causes cannabis plants to tell their roots to grow. (I mean, what specifically.)
If I understood what specifically triggers cannabis root growth, I think a lot of other things would fall into place.

In that big container I am curious if there is even a flow through rate... designing soil is not easy; I certainly can't do it. I use recipes and I don't improvise.

Hmm.... interesting.
I have not heard the term "flow through rate" before.
So, is it the rate at which the plant dries out the surrounding soil that causes cannabis plants to grow roots?
(Meaning, is it perhaps not the BEING dry, but the rate at which the soil goes from being wet to dry) that causes cannabis plants to send out roots?
Or what is it exactly that causes a cannabis plant to decide to tell its roots to grow?
(Sorry, I don't mean to be a science nerd, but autistic people tend to fixate on stuff. It is part of the condition. The brain locks onto some things, and does not want to let go until it has an answer.)

I think maybe one thing that I am finding confusing is that apparently it is not necessary to make the soil absolutely dry, or else Emiliya would not have said to stop being so stingy with the water (when in this and other threads, people were talking about the benefits of letting your plants start to wilt before watering them to runoff again).
So I am trying really hard to understand just exactly what it is that makes the cannabis plant decide that it needs to send out some more roots. (What triggers that?)

About the Three Big Pots and Homemade Soil:
I am not super concerned about the three big pots with the homemade soil, because it dries out really fast. I think I will still have to water those a lot, so I think those will dry fairly soon.
I think my real concern is for the one big pot with the new boutique bagged soil.
I cannot remember where, but with the earlier clay soil (Round 1), Em told me just to let the pot sit, and keep the spreader roots moist every 3 days or so, until the top and the bottom sync up.
Now that I have a moisture probe, I think it will be a lot easier to get the top and the bottom to sync up. So I hope to follow that regimen (moisten the top every 3 days or so, until the top and the bottom sync up).
Maybe this is weird, but I think the science-experiment-value is worth it.

Sorry I am not more together on this. I am not the smartest guy in the world, but I am trying really hard to understand.
I appreciate everyone's help and advice very much.

 

[Azimuth]

About the Solo Cups:
Yes, I was prepared to check them every few hours for the next few days, and wait until they started to wilt before watering to runoff. But then Em said to stop being stingy with water (????) and water them to runoff (up, down, and sideways) twice, ten minutes apart (and you said to go with Em' advice), so I did that right then.
Then she says to leave them alone for 4-5 days, so I plan to do that.

Sounds like a plan. Do that.

I think what I am MOST concerned with is to understand exactly what it is that causes cannabis plants to tell their roots to grow. (I mean, what specifically.)

Dryness. The roots job is to get water and nutrients to the plant. If there is adequate moisture available then there is no need to send out a search party. When the resources get depleted the roots start to seek out alternatives by going exploring.

Early on in my growing career I kept my plants nice and moist and couldn't understand why I didn't have the big beautiful root porn others were showing. Also couldn't understand why my harvests were pretty poor. Turns out the two are related. Not the only cause, but definitely related.

Maybe this is weird, but I think the science-experiment-value is worth it.

Totally agree. I've got some clones going right now I don't need and am using them to try out different things. I learn a lot more from my failures than I do from stuff that works out.

And finally, no need to apologize. Many of us learn by making mistakes and then asking for advice from others. Many times that advice is given in a way that the giver takes a certain pre-knowledge for granted, so if something's not clear, ask again in a different way. Seems like someone somewhere on here always knows the answer.

 

[Emilya Green]

Flow through rate means the rate that water put in from the top will flow through the soil, to the bottom and out of the drainage holes if the water retention rate is exceeded. Both of these factors are designed in when you buy a commercial soil, and I suspect that the heavy clay columbian soil just gummed everything up.

Weeds do not waste energy growing new roots if they don't have to. If they have a good water source they will grow roots to a point and then stop. But, if the plant is forced to search for water, because it only comes around when it is needed to survive, the plant will be driven to send out more roots in order to make them more efficient. The signal for the plant to grow new roots is that there is no water.

 

[CBDMed]

Flow through rate means the rate that water put in from the top will flow through the soil, to the bottom and out of the drainage holes if the water retention rate is exceeded. Both of these factors are designed in when you buy a commercial soil, and I suspect that the heavy clay columbian soil just gummed everything up.

Weeds do not waste energy growing new roots if they don't have to. If they have a good water source they will grow roots to a point and then stop. But, if the plant is forced to search for water, because it only comes around when it is needed to survive, the plant will be driven to send out more roots in order to make them more efficient. The signal for the plant to grow new roots is that there is no water.

Ok, @Emilya , thank you very much.
Only, now I am more confused than before.
May I please ask you?
I was surprised when I took the girls out of the Solo cups this morning, and the roots did not seem any longer than before.
So I started thinking about that.
I only gave the girls two spritzes for the spreader roots in I think maybe five days (I would have to look), but the soil was much, much drier, if still not completely dry in the bottom half.
I had figured that since the soil was much drier, that the roots would have gotten longer in the meantime, and I was very surprised when they were not.

So, if the soil got drier, why did the roots not get longer?

And, if the roots had not grown longer yet, and there was still a little moisture in the bottom half of the cup, then why was it time to water to runoff, instead if give a light spritz to the spreader roots?

Why wasn't it better to hold off on watering, and check on them every three hours, and water them to runoff only after they juuuuuust barely began to wilt?

What am I missing here? (Because now I am totally confused.)

 

[Emilya Green]

The plants can't work with nothing... it takes water to supply the energy needed to be able to create those roots. Roots also tend to chase water, so if you had watered those plants to saturation like a week ago when 3x the diameter reached the outer edges of the cup, the roots would already be spreading around the bottom, chasing that water. So its a balance that is needed... enough water to keep everything going, but no so much that the roots get lazy. This is why I teach people to use a wet/dry cycle... alternating between feast and famine.

 

[CBDMed]

Ahh, ok. So I have the wrong conception of "dry"?
And starving them for water to the point of wilting is counterproductive?
Wow, I am glad you explained that!

I read both of your studies on watering twice already, and I thought I understood them, but apparently not.
I printed them out, and will try to go over them on paper, to see if that helps.
I hope to read them again (line by line) before the next time I give anything water.

The plants can't work with nothing... it takes water to supply the energy needed to be able to create those roots. Roots also tend to chase water, so if you had watered those plants to saturation like a week ago when 3x the diameter reached the outer edges of the cup, the roots would already be spreading around the bottom, chasing that water. So its a balance that is needed... enough water to keep everything going, but no so much that the roots get lazy. This is why I teach people to use a wet/dry cycle... alternating between feast and famine.

Ahhh, so it would have been better to water through the stem area?
Very interesting.
It should also be interesting to see how the two different types of soils dry out, and why.

Thank you again.

 

[Emilya Green]

Once you have established a cycle, a wet/dry cycle, then it is beneficial to wait for them to dry out before watering again. But before you have established this cycle, starving them for water is not helping, it is keeping them from getting going.

Do an experiment. Take a container of soil without a plant in it, and water it to runoff. See how many weeks it takes for that water to evaporate, or as you say, dry out. Compare that to a container with a plant in it. That plant will USE UP the water stored in the soil. What you are experiencing is not the soil drying out, it is the plant draining the water. In the case of your problem plant, the roots are not able to get to the water apparently... your soil is not allowing the roots to get to it.

 

[Emilya Green]

Ahhh, so it would have been better to water through the stem area?

this might be a translation issue... please describe what you mean by the stem area, and then I will answer this question

 

[CBDMed]

Once you have established a cycle, a wet/dry cycle, then it is beneficial to wait for them to dry out before watering again. But before you have established this cycle, starving them for water is not helping, it is keeping them from getting going.

Ay yay yay...
Okay, that makes sense...
And that also explains why the roots grew once after I watered them once (and then they did not grow anymore).

So, then when a seedling germinates and has water, it grows roots just because (and it has to have moisture to work with)?
But then the seedling won't grow any more unless it gets a beneficial dry stress, to make it want to adapt (kind of like muscles grow after a gym workout, but a water stress instead of a weight stress)?
If so, then the Solo cup roots should be growing right now, having just been through a dry stress (drought / famine), and then having been watered to runoff (like a good strong rain)?
So what we are trying to imitate is something like a good heavy storm followed by a light rain or two, and then another good heavy storm (and adjust the timing depending on how fast the plants suck up the water)?

And so the key is that if they get dry, the next time they get watered they want to grow more roots, to prepare for the next dry spell?
But it doesn't have to be super-dry?

If I understand all of that correctly, then the next time I inspect the roots (in 4-5 days) there should be more roots inside, since the roots now have water (feast) after a time of dry-stress (famine)?

Do an experiment. Take a container of soil without a plant in it, and water it to runoff. See how many weeks it takes for that water to evaporate, or as you say, dry out. Compare that to a container with a plant in it. That plant will USE UP the water stored in the soil. What you are experiencing is not the soil drying out, it is the plant draining the water.

Ahhh, ok. I see your point.
And so, it IS the plant using the water (not the soil drying out spontaneously)..
And that means that a big wet container is a bad deal, because it effectively acts like a big wet sponge, and that poor little plant has to dry out that great big sponge all by himself?
So it takes a lot longer to get to dry, which you have to have before you can cycle back to wet?

In the case of your problem plant, the roots are not able to get to the water apparently... your soil is not allowing the roots to get to it.

Hmmm...
I can see I am not communicating well.
Please let me try again.

The consistency of the homemade soil was actually pretty uniform.
I just mixed it, and then shoveled it into the cloth pots, and bounced it lightly a few times (to settle it).
But there should not be an unexpected layer of anything.

I think maybe part of the problem was my confusion, in that I did not have a water probe until Friday/Saturday.
I think I was trying to follow that part of the directions which says to try to water them to 3x their height, but I did not have a water probe--and I was not giving them nearly enough water (probably because I was afraid to overwater the pots again).
So I think maybe I just did not give the homemade soil buckets enough water?
But what confuses me is that I gave the homemade soil buckets and the boutique soil buckets about the same amount of water, and the boutique soil is still moist with a 1+" layer of wet on the bottom of the pot.
Why would the homemade soil buckets have dry bottoms when the plants are about the same size, and when I was giving them the same amount of water, unless the homemade soil does not hold the moisture as well?

I was assuming the difference in the buckets would be evaporation (probably due to having so much Perlite, as opposed to fibers that retain moisture, like coco coir, blonde peat, and "Mammoth" (whatever that is, hehe).
Light bulb is coming on.
The reason the homemade soil buckets do not hold water as well is that they are 1/3 Perlite.

Ok, I found the thread.
I could not find bagged soil, and had to do something.
My first soil experiment was a mess because it was too-heavy clay.
@SmokingWings suggested this:

>> "You could try the basic Holy Trinity of soil mixing; 1/3 compost including the worm castings, 1/3 Perlite (or Perlite and Rice Hulls mixed together) and 1/3 finely shredded Coco Coir (or a Coco Coir and Peat Moss mix)."

So I think that is what I did.
I think it was 1/3 compost (and 1/3 of that was worm compost),
I think 1/3 Perlite,
and 1/3 finely shredded coco coir,
plus some assorted flavorings (rock dust, etc.).

in contrast, when I look at its composition side-by-side with the bagged boutique soil, there is a marked different in composition. The homemade soil has a lot more Perlite, and a lot less of the moisture-retaining fibers.

This is the formula for the bagged boutique soil:
Black Earth (rich volcanic clay)
Coconut fiber
Blonde peat
Earthworm humus
Perlite
Mycorrhizae
Bat Guano
Trichoderma
Cal dolomite
Mammoth (???)

Does it make sense that the homemade soil is drying out faster because it does not have the same moisture-retaining ingredients?

I hope I am making sense.