SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[Amy Gardner]

Just in case you missed it over at the Holy Grail, decarb is 110 minutes at 230-235 degrees...

I love it when these little 'info gems' pop out! Thanks Sue.

So a question; if I was interested to have a broader 'synergistic' infusion, could I decarb for less time and end up with more undecarbed (and therefore acid?) cannbinoids in the mix?

Plus - that decarb is pre infusion, yes (i.e., baking the bud)?

If I don't have a MB machine, how long for a good infusion in the oven if the bud is already decarbed? (I know we've been here before, perspectives change, experience and experiments happen... sometimes answers are new .).

.

(It's been so long since I've caught up on this thread. I'm sure I've missed a shed load! Don't think I can manage going back and catching up so I'm just jumping back in here!)

 

[ginganinja30]

ginganinja I have accessed my settings and turned on vCard which allows friends to access vCard which includes my email address. For that to work we have to be friends, so I've sent you a friend request. Hopefully that should work!

We are getting closer WAMS lol.

While we figure this out feel free to post on my journal too to help get your 50 mark .

1st Time Grow For My Beautiful Broken Brain

Does anyone know how to access friends requests using the iPhone app?

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[SweetSue]

We are getting closer WAMS lol.

While we figure this out feel free to post on my journal too to help get your 50 mark .

1st Time Grow For My Beautiful Broken Brain

Does anyone know how to access friends requests using the iPhone app?

...

I use desktop on my iPhone.

 

[InTheShed]

Apologies in advance if this gets a bit wordy, and if I'm stating something obvious that everyone knows, it's just because it's news to me!

I'm doing a bit of research as a result of reading a link in a post by Lucifer86 on what's in reclaim.

I was taken by this paragraph:

All four of these samples had increased levels of CBN, when compared to typical extracts and flowers. CBN, or cannabinol, is an oxidative breakdown product of THC, which is converted via heat/light/air/time. THCa will also convert into CBNa via similar mechanisms, but we cannot currently quantify for the acid form of CBN....Additionally, CBN is attributed to feelings of tiredness and/or drowsiness.

I have read many people talk about later harvest with more amber causing "couchlock." They attribute that to the THC breaking down to CBD, which never made any sense to me as THC is a separate cannabinoid from CBD. Additionally, SweetSue taught me that CBD is the activating cannabinoid, not a couchlock one. Still, this line of reasoning persists across the internet and on 420mag as well.

Upon further research, I have discovered here that:

Unlike many other cannabinoids, CBN is not typically present on fresh cannabis flowers. In fact, even in dried and cured strains, the percentage of CBN often doesn’t reach more than one percent.
CBN is actually a breakdown product of the most famous cannabinoid, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). THC is the primary psychoactive in the plant, and its what causes the plant’s classic “high”. As THC ages, it transforms into CBN. Typically, more CBN is found in buds that have gone stale. While that may sound unappealing, the cannabinoid has several surprising benefits. In fact, high-THC strains that contain higher levels of CBN are thought to provide a more sedative, couch-locking effect.

This made me wonder, despite the above information that "CBN is not typically present on fresh cannabis flowers," if it is THC degrading to CBN in late harvests that is causing the couchlock effect. Scrolling through my search results led me to the great site GrowWeedEasy.com and the information on this page on THC, CBD, and CBN:

How to get high levels of CBN in your buds:
- Wait longer to harvest for higher levels of CBN

That is the first time I had ever read that information in all my travels.

There is my Ah-ha moment! Most people on the internet are confusing CBD with CBN. And if I am looking for something that helps with insomnia, it's not just the indica cultivars I should be looking at, or even just the amount of THC in those indicas. I should be looking for much more amber before I harvest, not the 10-20% ratio I always read.

So, if I grow an indica with high THC, harvest when it's mostly amber, cure it poorly (), decarb it, and make suppositories out of those buds (as I had mentioned previously, I'm trying to avoid the euphoria), I should have a great anti-insomnia medicine.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[SweetSue]

Apologies in advance if this gets a bit wordy, and if I'm stating something obvious that everyone knows, it's just because it's news to me!

I'm doing a bit of research as a result of reading a link in a post by Lucifer86 on what's in reclaim.

I was taken by this paragraph:


I have read many people talk about later harvest with more amber causing "couchlock." They attribute that to the THC breaking down to CBD, which never made any sense to me as THC is a separate cannabinoid from CBD. Additionally, SweetSue taught me that CBD is the activating cannabinoid, not a couchlock one. Still, this line of reasoning persists across the internet and on 420mag as well.

Upon further research, I have discovered here that:


This made me wonder, despite the above information that "CBN is not typically present on fresh cannabis flowers," if it is THC degrading to CBN in late harvests that is causing the couchlock effect. Scrolling through my search results led me to the great site GrowWeedEasy.com and the information on this page on THC, CBD, and CBN:

That is the first time I had ever read that information in all my travels.

There is my Ah-ha moment! Most people on the internet are confusing CBD with CBN. And if I am looking for something that helps with insomnia, it's not just the indica cultivars I should be looking at, or even just the amount of THC in those indicas. I should be looking for much more amber before I harvest, not the 10-20% ratio I always read.

So, if I grow an indica with high THC, harvest when it's mostly amber, cure it poorly (), decarb it, and make suppositories out of those buds (as I had mentioned previously, I'm trying to avoid the euphoria), I should have a great anti-insomnia medicine.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I chalk most of the confusion up to typos that never get fixed. I have Teddy Edwards backing me up, but not everyone in our position of information distributors are as diligent as we are. It helps to be better educated. Then you can more easily spot those errors. Sometimes I'll jump in to leave a correction.

Mara Gordon of Aunt Zelda's explained once that they leave their cannabis poorly stored for a year to get meds high in CBN. Says it works like a charm. They make the best sleep meds.

 

[SweetSue]

I came across a new site to me, one CBD Medical Journal. What caught my eye was the report on a study out of New York's Columbia University last year that investigated the effects of CBD in treatment of glioblastoma, alone and in combination with y-radiation. The blog linked Columbia University's coverage, and they in turn pointed you back to this same blogger, which set off alarms in my head. Not that I don't trust them, mind you, but I decided to look closer.

After reading in this blog that it makes a difference in the timing of the CBD dose - and that you want to take that dose following the radiation treatment - I followed the link to the abstract. Boy am I glad I followed the impulse this time.

Incidentally, this abstract was fascinating, and highly technical. Is it just me, or are they getting easier to understand?

Research Papers:

Regulation of human glioblastoma cell death by combined treatment of cannabidiol, γ-radiation and small molecule inhibitors of cell signaling pathways. Oncotarget | Regulation of human glioblastoma cell death by combined treatment of cannabidiol, γ-radiation and small molecule inhibitors of cell signaling pathways


In the summary of the paper we find this statement:

Interesting one aspect of combined treatment by CBD and γ-irradiation was the order of the treatment: first CBD then irradiation; delay of CBD treatment decreased apoptosis. Kinetics of CBD-induced expression and secretion of cytokines (both prosurvival and proapoptotic) appears to significantly affect cell death regulation and synergy between CBD and irradiation. So, suppression of CBD-induced IL6 autocrine/paracrine stimulation of the protective signaling (Figure 10C) might be involved in upregulation of apoptosis induced by combined treatment.

Can I get confirmation that what they said is you want to take that dose before the radiation treatment? In the paper they mention 30 minutes in advance of radiation. My understanding after reading was that waiting the 24 hours after radiation resulted in the downregulation of cell apoptosis, the opposite of what the blogger claimed.

So I need someone to confirm my understanding. This is a significant point. We don't want to get it wrong, do we?

 

[InTheShed]

This is well over my head, but I would agree that is seems 30 minutes before radiation was significant:

Interestingly, there was a critical difference in the consequence of combined treatment of GBM cells depending on the sequence of treatment. So, we observed strong effects of CBD pretreatment that occurred 30 min before exposure to γ-radiation on the final levels of apoptosis (Figure 2C). A change of the order of treatment of U87MG cells using the initial γ-irradiation (10 Gy) and delayed addition of CBD (24 h after irradiation) lead to an actual downregulation of radiation-induced apoptosis by CBD (Figure 2D). The significance of this phenomenon will be investigated in additional experiments.

They want to do more research on that specifically.

And here they repeat it:

In these conditions, we observed an additional upregulation of CBD-induced apoptosis not only in U87MG cells but also in U118MG cells if CBD pretreatment was before irradiation (Figure 4A). On the other hand, delayed addition of CBD 16 h after irradiation again down-regulated radiation-induced apoptosis in both glioblastoma lines.

Assuming that down-regulation is bad and upregulation is good of course.

And per previous conversations, I found it interesting that the CBD was diluted in DMSO!

 

[Amy Gardner]

Assuming that down-regulation is bad and upregulation is good of course.

Mmm yes I was wondering that too. Sometimes good, sometimes bad AFAIK - depends on the situation... I haven't got the function to read the article so can't help much more sorry. But I do know that sometimes, often in fact, technical medical prose can be a bit like technical legal prose and with both it's surprising how often something turns out to mean almost the opposite of what it sounds like to 'regular' folk....

 

[InTheShed]

I don't want to get to deep into the weeds here as I am about as far from a cancer research fellow as one can get, but I found this article when trying to find out which is good and which is bad:

Geraniin down regulates gamma radiation-induced apoptosis by suppressing DNA damage

Gamma ray irradiation triggers DNA damage and apoptosis of proliferating stem cells and peripheral immune cells, resulting in the destruction of intestinal crypts and lymphoid system. Geraniin is a natural compound extracts from an aquatic plant Nymphaea tetragona and possesses good antioxidant property. In this study, we demonstrate that geraniin rescues radiosensitive splenocytes and jejunal crypt cells from radiation-induced DNA damage and apoptosis. [lots of medical jargon] Therefore, geraniin can be a radioprotective agent against γ-irradiation exposure.

So if we're looking at a neuroprotectant, down-regulation is good for the cells. If we're looking at killing cancer cells, up-regulation is good. What I haven't sorted out is whether the U87MG cells & U118MG cells are cells we want to protect or kill!

I will now stop posting and wait for someone who actually knows something to jump in...

 

[SweetSue]

According to the abstract CBD both kills cancer cells and protects the healthy neurons. That made it more complicated, didn't it?

 

[keshazel]

Ive done some research and found that your reaction to olive oil is not all that unusual.

If coconut is out, maybe try some grapeseed oil? Ive seen that used in concentrates.

I don't have any experience with tinctures, but its cannabinoids mixed in with something else, so there is no reason to not use this option. If you have some you like and can tolerate, that's perfect,

There are a couple of reasons for the small amount. What we want to do is tweek your endocannbinoid system with a small amount of thc/cbd. Think of it as a vitamin supplement. A therapeutic dose, where you get healing benefits but don't get 'high', if fact you want it so you barely feel it, is the best.

Too much thc will give you negative outcomes of too much too fast (dry mouth, racy brain, anxiety, etc) that most people want to avoid. Internally too much will simply shut down your CB1 receptors and your system will flush all the excess. Money for nothing. Too much can also make the symptoms worse. Starting at such a low level and slowly increasing the doseage will help find the best level for you. People call it the 'sweet spot'.

If you want to start at a higher amount that's ok too. What is most important is the keeping track of what you took, how much when and the results you experienced. You can always lower it later if needed.

Some reading on Cannabis Microdosing' will explain it.

If you feel up to taking the rosin, go for it. We can wait a day or 2 to go back to the oils.

Hi,

I just finished testing on grape seed oil. I took 1 teaspoon 3 times in the last 24 hours and so far no diarrhea.

I'm up to three pieces of rosin per night.

I'm not sure where to go from here.

Kelly

 

[SweetSue]

I don't want to get to deep into the weeds here as I am about as far from a cancer research fellow as one can get, but I found this article when trying to find out which is good and which is bad:

Geraniin down regulates gamma radiation-induced apoptosis by suppressing DNA damage


So if we're looking at a neuroprotectant, down-regulation is good for the cells. If we're looking at killing cancer cells, up-regulation is good. What I haven't sorted out is whether the U87MG cells & U118MG cells are cells we want to protect or kill!

I will now stop posting and wait for someone who actually knows something to jump in...

They're cells they wanted to kill. They're two cell lines of human glioblastomas. Downregulating cell apoptosis in the cancer cells isn't something you want to promote. This indicates that the blogger at CBD Medical Journal got it wrong. I'm correct in this determination, aren't I? It sure feels like it. I've read it over a couple times now, and I'll give it a fresh go tomorrow. I was on my way to watch a master class on opioid withdrawal when this distracted me. I'd bet somebody comes along that needs to know this.

Isn't Z having radiation therapy on her brain? This would be particularly relevant to her, if that's the case. I want to be absolutely certain before I suggest any change in her regimen.

 

[SweetSue]

Let's keep in mind that this was work done on cell lines in a lab. Significant as they may appear, we have no human trials to point to. Thankfully, cannabis is safe to experiment with, and I read this abstract to say that CBD will kill cancer cells. It's just that if you wait for the CBD dose you won't get the more dramatic results they got when they preceeded the radiation with a dose of CBD 30 minutes in advance.

It appears CBD on its own may be an effective treatment for at least certain types of cancer, gliomas among them.

 

[SweetSue]

Hi,

I just finished testing on grape seed oil. I took 1 teaspoon 3 times in the last 24 hours and so far no diarrhea.

I'm up to three pieces of rosin per night.

I'm not sure where to go from here.

Kelly

Kelly, that's excellent! Are you prepared to attempt making BioBombs? They can be made with grape seed oil. Once made you can use them as suppositories to get the cannabinoid numbers up.

I'm hoping Old Bear catches this and responds. I'd like to get his more patient approach for you. I'd do the grape seed one more day to be certain your system can tolerate it. Good job on the rosin increase too. Hold there another day while you get a better feel for the grape seed oil.

How are you feeling Kelly?

 

[SweetSue]

Interesting one aspect of combined treatment by CBD and γ-irradiation was the order of the treatment: first CBD then irradiation; delay of CBD treatment decreased apoptosis. Kinetics of CBD-induced expression and secretion of cytokines (both prosurvival and proapoptotic) appears to significantly affect cell death regulation and synergy between CBD and irradiation. So, suppression of CBD-induced IL6 autocrine/paracrine stimulation of the protective signaling (Figure 10C) might be involved in upregulation of apoptosis induced by combined treatment.


Basic language...... What they say here is that the order of treatment matters, begin with CBD and then radiation. There's no doubt in my mind. I've read the abstract, reviewing the relevant parts three times now, and I understood enough to know they stated clearly that better results were achieved by doing the CBD dose first.

I think this is one of those nuggets the universe leads us to every now and again.

* CBD will kill cancer cells.
* CBD will protect healthy cells during radiation treatments.
* Better results can be had with a combination therapy.

Now.... We may have a different idea of "better results" than the rapid destruction of cancer cells. It occurs to me that a longer therapy with CBD alone might be a consideration, particularly if from whole plant medicines. They mention in the abstract that CBD treatment is most effective over time. As we know from our own experiences, the cumulative effects of cannabis are more pronounced than any of us really suspected.

 

[SweetSue]

We now know, with some certainty, that cannabis will potentiate both radiation and chemotherapy. Oncologists are beginning to pay attention. I sometimes wonder how mad they're getting. They could force the plant off the schedule in record time, if they'd a mind to.

I think it's going to be a bumpy ride for the clown in the White House and his lackeys.

Was that too cold?

 

[SweetSue]

I went back to CBD Medical Journal and double-checked, and I was incorrect. He clearly states take the CBD dose first and then radiation or chemotherapy.

See? If I'd read it clearly the first time I wouldn't have read the abstract, and there's a wealth of information in there. I love the way the universe sends me on these little journeys.

On that happy note I'll say goodnight.

 

[Amy Gardner]

I use desktop on my iPhone.

Hey Sue - can you elaborate on that? Do you mean webview? Or is there a desktop mode or something...

.

 

[ginganinja30]

I use desktop on my iPhone.

Thanks Sue, I'll give that a go later today ...

 

[ginganinja30]

Hey Sue - can you elaborate on that? Do you mean webview? Or is there a desktop mode or something...

.

Hi Amy, if you go onto the 420 magazine website from your phone/tablets internet browser I got it from there.

It's a bit difficult for me to navigate as there's lots of visual information to process on each page but I think I've managed to send a message and accepted friend requests.

Hope this helps

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