Yess I can agree green phenos are def stronger
New Mega Crop nothing like old?
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i've done better with mc in hempy than i ever did with AN same media. crazy better.
you do hit a pucker point mid flower, but it keeps fine if you hold steady. it's hot in flower.
i see a lot of folk hit a point showing a pk def that is almost always taken for a tox. usually it's the tip burn with some slight edging. folk get that messed up and run down a rabbit hole trying to fix it. happens with other nutes too, but is classic in mc. i've learned to watch for it and hit the plants with extra .5g/gal when it shows. catches it every time.
i'm gonna try dial it back and add their booster on a run some time to see what happens.
you do hit a pucker point mid flower, but it keeps fine if you hold steady. it's hot in flower.
i see a lot of folk hit a point showing a pk def that is almost always taken for a tox. usually it's the tip burn with some slight edging. folk get that messed up and run down a rabbit hole trying to fix it. happens with other nutes too, but is classic in mc. i've learned to watch for it and hit the plants with extra .5g/gal when it shows. catches it every time.
i'm gonna try dial it back and add their booster on a run some time to see what happens.
OldMedUser
Formerly Known as LabRat
That's got more to do about the myco that is in HP. It loses activity after a year but if using hydro nutes for feeding then myco isn't all that important. I started using a product called DynoMyco. Made in Israel specifically for pot. Not sure if it's helping as I use HP with RO water with either AN 3-part or MegaCrop nutes. I have two kush plants flowering now with one plant on each to see the difference but can't really tell.
The peat moss in the HP will be fine for years especially if it goes dry.
Here is the official explanation from the manufacturer (PremierTech) regarding aged ProMix HP:
"[The] product can change with age. Because the peat moss used in making the product has some naturally occurring bacteria and fungi (not harmful), these microorganisms can biodegrade some ingredients over time. The product does not go bad, but it is different from when it is manufactured. Some of the changes that can occur with time include nitrogen drawdown, biodegradation of the wetting agent and elevation of pH. These changes are conditional depending on product storage over time. The warmer the storage temperature the more likely changes will occur.
If you have product that is dated, pH and nitrogen can be adjusted with one application of a water soluble fertilizer at 100 ppm of 'N' at planting. This is generally all that is needed to adjust the product."
"[The] product can change with age. Because the peat moss used in making the product has some naturally occurring bacteria and fungi (not harmful), these microorganisms can biodegrade some ingredients over time. The product does not go bad, but it is different from when it is manufactured. Some of the changes that can occur with time include nitrogen drawdown, biodegradation of the wetting agent and elevation of pH. These changes are conditional depending on product storage over time. The warmer the storage temperature the more likely changes will occur.
If you have product that is dated, pH and nitrogen can be adjusted with one application of a water soluble fertilizer at 100 ppm of 'N' at planting. This is generally all that is needed to adjust the product."
OldMedUser
Formerly Known as LabRat
I wonder what's up with the N drawdown. There's no nutes added to HP and not too many people have any straight N ferts to add 100ppm of.
I've used it for over 10 years and some sits around for a few years before use and never had issues. RO water with pH Perfect nutes and away we go!
The MegaCrop I have comes out at pH 6.0 at 4g/gal in RO water and 6.5 in my 400ppm/pH8 dugout water so I never check it's pH either when using.This girl outside was supposed to be an auto fem but grew as a reg fem and didn't start flowering until mid-Aug. Her main nutes are the MegaCrop and she's growing in mainly HP. About 120L of mix under her. (1 Large bale of HP is 107L)
I'm way the fug up north in Alberta and last night it got down to -2C/28F so she gets a blanket tossed over the front and that little heater keeps her about 45F. I have a remote weather station sensor hanging in the middle of her to monitor the temp from my desk. Still a couple weeks to go I figure and the colas are getting real PHAT fast. 5ft tall. It's a very high CBD, (20+%), less than 1%THC strain called Earth Lover by Sebring. Stinks like the best pot ever too. My arthritis will hate it!
I have a clone of her and will be growing some indoors and using STS to get some fem pollen off her too. I'll be sending some to the lab to get real numbers once she's cropped. This is the ONE!
My first outdoor plant in 20 years of growing indoors up here.
Half hour old pics.
OldMedUser
Formerly Known as LabRat
I read thru the whole thread as I use HP with MegaCrop too and what I'm hearing is feeding too heavy and ending up with toxic salts buildup hitting about mid-flower. Using high ppm tap water just adds more mineral salts to the load and makes it worse. Low RH also makes it worse so I use RO water only and feed at half or less the amounts I read some guys using. Like 4g/gal- 1g/L every 2nd watering is a good dose except as I went into flower then I went to 6g/gal - 1.5g/L but also their Big Up 0-52-34 P/K booster and Carbo to feed the myco I add. Also have their Rock Steady 0-0-62 for K only boost after the stretch. They get Epsom Salts, various vitamins and mineral supplements I take myself like Zn, Fe, Se, Vit. C etc.
Too much P and N after the stretch is not good. Need less of those and higher K and Mg with lower Ca. Extra S the last 3 weeks will kick up resin production too.
If you're growing organic in the dirt then I got nothin'.
Stunned
Well-Known Member
I have 4 seedlings in solo cups using promix HP
When deciding where they'll live out the rest of their lives
My gut said hydrate the coco! And I did.
Looking back at the decision a few days ago and catching up on this thread
I think my gut instinct may have been correct.
At first I chalked up my decision as cowardice.... And it may still be that
But there was also a nagging uneasiness with going MC and Promix
I'll transplant them into 3 gallon Airpots with coco like I have always done.
I need to see some more clarity with this combo before I commit to it
When deciding where they'll live out the rest of their lives
My gut said hydrate the coco! And I did.
Looking back at the decision a few days ago and catching up on this thread
I think my gut instinct may have been correct.
At first I chalked up my decision as cowardice.... And it may still be that
But there was also a nagging uneasiness with going MC and Promix
I'll transplant them into 3 gallon Airpots with coco like I have always done.
I need to see some more clarity with this combo before I commit to it
Yup I started to use terpinator def helped a bit but mc is awesome goin to give emeralds a try but bye the price of all the bottles I’m sure I’ll be right back with mc
mrking
Well-Known Member
This really surprises me, are they not suppose to know what they are doing? It took me less than five minutes and found a PDF paper from Cornell University that states that as fact. You would think they would balance the N with both types to ensure no PH spikes in either direction.
PDF LINK
While I absolutely understand the whole ordeal with the nitrogen recently, which was awesome info, I can't help but wonder if that was something unrelated.
Why? I've had very similar looks as that, but in RDWC. The N source/ratio and medium pH "shouldn't" be a thing in hydro. I say shouldn't, but I mean it shouldn't be causing an effect like it would in promix. I will say that MC does seem to raise the pH over the week typically, which most likely is due to similar reasons with soil and the high level of nitrate.
So is it something in the ratio, that may be "balanced" in the bag, but isn't so much in the feed? Very interesting following along. I have a sinking suspicion in my gut that it may be balanced, but on a very, very fine line. A little wiggle and it's off. Whether that's from something in the source water, medium, solar eclipse, or who knows.
Above is the breakdown of MC. Interesting ratio of 3:1 ca/mg, wouldn't think you'd need calmag with that, but many people (me included) sure seem to need it.
As previously discussed, the ration of nitrate to ammoniacal is a whopping 19:1! Wow.
Above is a screenshot of another "one part" fertilizer for comparison of element amounts/types.
I cannot speak to its performance, as I have not tried it yet. Sharing this for nothing more than a comparison of elements, etc. I do use this company's organic calmag (no N!
) and silica at present, and they are very nice products. I will be trying out their component series fertilizer real, real soon just for shits and grins.It's a 2:1 ratio of nitrate to ammoniacal, 2:1 on ca/mg, has P and K, and the other expected elements.
Now why did I throw that in?
First, because it's the only other true 1-part feed that I'm aware of.
Second, is the amount of elements in the breakdown.
MC: 10-7-18
Other: 3-6-4
Not hard to see the differences, yet both are targeted to and formulated for cannabis. Why so different? I think what we can gather from this is that maybe there really isn't just a be all, end all, truly one-part solution.
At some point I will try this liquid one part just for kicks, but even in big bulk it still runs 6¢/gallon, or about $48 for my 50gal rdwc. In normal bulk, not a 55gal drum
rofl it runs about twice that.It's not my $20/grow with MC, but $100/grow isn't overly terrible, all things considered and being a 50gal system volume that's changed once a week.
I mentioned that I use some of their other products, and I've chatted them up on the phone a bit. I can say they were much more responsive and knew a lot more than what the folks at greenleaf have spit back to shed, myself, and others that have contacted them. So that's not a bad thing.
I found out something very, very interesting and foreign to me. A bit off topic, but apparently you can over water in perlite like this. I have 4 running now (recirculating dutch buckets, 100% perlite), and my normal schedule is to refresh the buckets ever 4 hours for 15 minutes. Whatever the deal is, these girls just flat out weren't happy with that, and have taken a beating in veg. I cut it back to once a day a week ago, and sure enough, they're getting back on track.
I thought it was weird, but sure enough. The look to them was just all over. Looked overfed at the tips, but underfed lower down. Leaves blowin up progressed from the tip on newish growth, to the sides and looked like a calmag issue almost. It was pretty wild, but over watering never occurred to me. Well, I guess there is a fine line. I think I'll be making an adjustment to my sched and going only 3x-4x/day moving forward. If the 2" of water at the bottom gets used up in between, that's ok.
Now back to the subject at hand, I'm taking note of the 1/2g increase and will try that when I run MC again. Right now I'm a bit gun shy I guess, but I'll give it another run before long. I'd planned to do it on my next 3x3 run in a couple weeks, or maybe on the 4x4 that's starting up again now too.
Not a great test, since there isn't control or clones or exact duplication that I know some want to see for proof, but whatever. Run a plant, see what happens, document results. Good enough for me.
Above is a screenshot of another "one part" fertilizer for comparison of element amounts/types.
I cannot speak to its performance, as I have not tried it yet.
I wouldn't, at all, in an actively-aerated (R)DWC hydroponic setup. It's got microbial life in it.
No diff than hydroguard, really. But running sterile probably isn’t in its best interest. However it is quite usable in hydro.
IKR! And after they said it doesn't make a difference they said that they are sticking with nitrate N because it's better for hydro. They actually have that correct from what I can find (see below), but they are ignoring the effect on soil and soilless media.
Unless you have another explanation for the rise in pH of my aged substrate besides the one the manufacturer stated, I don't see any reason to doubt that the nitrate in MC is the cause of the rise.
I'd give this article a read mV:
Nitrogen Fertilization in Hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics
scienceinhydroponics.com
"In hydroponics, most of the nitrogen must be supplied as NO3(-) [nitrate] because the hydroponic media allows ammonium ions to become toxic exceedingly fast. For example, hydroponic plants can withstand concentrations of nitrogen (as nitrate) up to about 250 ppm while concentrations of nitrogen as ammonium are only withstood up until about 30 ppm.
"So next time you are searching for a nitrogen nutrient for your hydroponic plants, remember to search for nitrate salts as more than 90% of your total nitrogen source."
The nitrogen should be mainly in the nitrate form as it provides more compact and controlled growth. More extensive leaf and stem growth occurs with ammoniacal and urea nitrogen. In general, to avoid excessive stretching and oversized leaves, more than 60 percent of the nitrogen provided to plants should be in the nitrate form. Ideally 70 to 80 percent as this will provide a moderate growth response and avoid overly large cannabis plants.
This is why you will see more ferts being stacked with nitrate N. I think MC is in the 90%+ range, so there's room for them to come down.
I never, ever, ever said, or have said that. Let me stress that again: I never, ever, ever said, or have said that.
EVER.
That is EXACTLY what caused your issue. You also fixed that one, 20-10-20, and all that. We're quite good there, and past that. I simply mentioned your issue because I had similar symptoms and no dirt in sight.
What I am saying is that I'm not sure that is the only issue with MC. I say this because I've had the same/similar symptoms as you, but in hydro.
That being the case, I'm 100.1% positive I don't have a pH issue with my soil. (You know, since there isn't any.)
So, now the question becomes "what else" could cause issues. It obviously will raise the pH a bit in hydro, I've fought it a good bit.
Get up to 6.2 or 6.3, I reset it to 5.5. Rinse, repeat.
So I'm sure my pH isn't ever out of range. So what else is off with it?
Bluter mentioned backing off in flower (to lower the N) while adding in a tiny amount of BE to bring the PK up a tick. (I mentioned the same thing a few weeks ago somewhere here and got flamed for it, but I still stand behind the concept.)
I think that might be a possible option to at least try out a little. That's what veg/bloom nutes do. Back the N off a tick, add a tick more PK.
Whatever the fundamental problem with it is, there certainly is one. No doubt about it. Now finding out the who/what/when/why/how is another matter.
From that same website I linked above, nitrate N has the same effect on pH in hydro, but they don't recommend 95% nitrate N as MC has it. They state:
"For many plants – especially fruiting plants like tomatoes or cucumbers – the ideal ammonium to nitrate ratio has been established to be around 2:8"
Source
That said, 337g in 130 days from sprout on my last plant with MC alone is nothing to complain about.
"For many plants – especially fruiting plants like tomatoes or cucumbers – the ideal ammonium to nitrate ratio has been established to be around 2:8"
Source
Sorry mV, I obviously misread what you wrote!
This was what I was talking about in my first post here, only I was thinking that some plants might need a bit more nitrogen in flower than MC is giving, and bumping it pushes the plant into toxicities. Same answer as yours though: blending the elements on a more individual basis.
That said, 337g in 130 days from sprout on my last plant with MC alone is nothing to complain about.
I just wanted to make it clear.
See, now we're getting somewhere. That fine line that pushes other things out of whack.
I really, really, really want it to work. However, this is probably going to be the biggest issue with any one part fertilizer. I could see where there may be an exception here or there, but overall I'm not wholly convinced that only a single part fertilizer is all one needs. Simply because of varying requirements in various stages of growth.
Now, there's another thing to all that. Not only how hot the feed could be, but the ratios. I think we're seeing that even if the fertilizer should be as simple as watching the shade of green, that isn't necessarily the best case scenario for plants.
And this right here is the biggest advantage MC holds. Cheap, and mostly works ok. Hence my frantic search to get it sorted.
I’d always understood the ‘proper’ NO3 amount to be around 5-10% of the NH4? Most nutrients seem to reflect this. @Skybound played with it a ton, paid a heavy price for raising the NO3 levels, and settled back down around the 5% level.
Currently back to the drawing board, using Hydro Buddy to scratch my head over Mega Crop. Again.
I’m ordering up some low nitrogen calmag for the mix.
I’m pretty confident that calcium deficiency is what I’m seeing, not that this helps me a lot because there always seems to be a zillion reasons for calcium issues.
Currently back to the drawing board, using Hydro Buddy to scratch my head over Mega Crop. Again.
I’m ordering up some low nitrogen calmag for the mix.
I’m pretty confident that calcium deficiency is what I’m seeing, not that this helps me a lot because there always seems to be a zillion reasons for calcium issues.
I think you mentioned it earlier but I’m sure sometimes people’s varying ppm in their tap water is to blame.I just wanted to make it clear.
See, now we're getting somewhere. That fine line that pushes other things out of whack.
I really, really, really want it to work. However, this is probably going to be the biggest issue with any one part fertilizer. I could see where there may be an exception here or there, but overall I'm not wholly convinced that only a single part fertilizer is all one needs. Simply because of varying requirements in various stages of growth.
Now, there's another thing to all that. Not only how hot the feed could be, but the ratios. I think we're seeing that even if the fertilizer should be as simple as watching the shade of green, that isn't necessarily the best case scenario for plants.
And this right here is the biggest advantage MC holds. Cheap, and mostly works ok. Hence my frantic search to get it sorted.
My tap water is fairly alkaline (8.0) and without adding acid before the MC it won’t come down far enough. I think this might somehow cause me pH fluctuations even though I get the pH to the same level every time. It also might be causing salt build up that’s throwing off everything.
Hopefully some things get figured out because of the conversation you started here. It’s going to help a lot of confused growers trying to use the “easy” nutrients and running into brick walls. We can run into the walls for them!
If you medium is properly buffered then you don't have to pH your nutrients. The pH of the medium determines if the plants are happy, not the pH of the water you pour in the medium.
Two things determine the pH of the medium: the alkaline content of your water and the type of N in your nutes. High calcium carbonate content will raise the pH of the medium over time, as will nitrate sourced nitrogen. Ammoniacal nitrogen will lower the pH over time.
The first post here explains this:
If the pH of your substrate is not where it should be, it needs to be modified. You can't do that by changing the pH of the water you pour through it.
Two things determine the pH of the medium: the alkaline content of your water and the type of N in your nutes. High calcium carbonate content will raise the pH of the medium over time, as will nitrate sourced nitrogen. Ammoniacal nitrogen will lower the pH over time.
The first post here explains this:
Do we need to pH adjust our nutrient solutions?
Greetings all! I recently had a running email conversation with the "Grower Services & Product Development Director" at ProMix (aka Premier Tech). I began the conversation by posting a question on their website, asking if I should be treating ProMix HP as soil or soil-less when mixing...
www.420magazine.com
If the pH of your substrate is not where it should be, it needs to be modified. You can't do that by changing the pH of the water you pour through it.
