Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm Makes 3 - Perpetual 2000w

[OldMedMan]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Thank You Papa

Another addition to my Papa Green folder on my hard drive. Everything you ever wanted to know about Scrog!

 

[usul]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Thank you Papa! Super valuable contribution to our community.

 

[COmmjDude]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

THANK YOU PAPA! this will come in handy when i set up my scrog great job man plus reps if i can

 

[RippedVanWnkl]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Wow Papa Green... I am humbled that you will be watching little grow... you do things big!

That line looks very nice for adjusting the square/opening size on your screen.

My first few grows were in a very tiny space... not even 3 feet tall - Cindy 99 under a 100 watt HPS!. The screen was a helpful feature.

I've evolved into just sticking a bamboo pole into the pot and pulling my plants open just a bit, like you, trimming away leaves that keep light from penetrating into the middle. I expect to shoot my weekly pic tonight, the Ice I've got going is now a pretty good example of doing this LST.

I've got a Super Silver Haze that will be very ready for the bloom room when the current occupants vacate. I'm thinking I'll copy your PVC rig... It looks like a guy could just fold it up and set out of the way easy when not in use.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Thank You Papa

Another addition to my Papa Green folder on my hard drive. Everything you ever wanted to know about Scrog!

OMM you honor me!

Thank you Papa! Super valuable contribution to our community.

Thanks, man - and well put! Although I get lots of great feedback and it helps me immeasurably, I am a firm believer in raising all the ships in the harbor.

THANK YOU PAPA! this will come in handy when i set up my scrog great job man plus reps if i can

Good deal! So glad was able to get it up before you started work. I am so emphatic about the clothesline I feel like I may be off putting some who are using screen - and I don't want to do that. But for anyone not going yet - please take the time and $12 to buy the clothesline.

Wow Papa Green... I am humbled that you will be watching little grow... you do things big!

That line looks very nice for adjusting the square/opening size on your screen.

My first few grows were in a very tiny space... not even 3 feet tall - Cindy 99 under a 100 watt HPS!. The screen was a helpful feature.

I've evolved into just sticking a bamboo pole into the pot and pulling my plants open just a bit, like you, trimming away leaves that keep light from penetrating into the middle. I expect to shoot my weekly pic tonight, the Ice I've got going is now a pretty good example of doing this LST.

I've got a Super Silver Haze that will be very ready for the bloom room when the current occupants vacate. I'm thinking I'll copy your PVC rig... It looks like a guy could just fold it up and set out of the way easy when not in use.

Thanks for sharing.

I like your grow a lot! I feel like my comments didn't really capture how impressed I am.

Its funny - I fluctuate on whether the added effort is worth it for the added results. For me, now that I use this method rather than wire, and because I have easy 360 access where I didn't used to, and only 600s - I am returning to an all scrog mentality. Although I may be upgrading the 600s to 2x1K for the stand up plants and use the 600s for these scrogs. That will definitely max out my electricity and room.


----------------------

Mini Update.

OK - I HATE digital ballasts! Talk about over-engineering a product. The damn things are so sensitive to power fluctuations you HAVE to spend an additional $80 a ballast minimum in hot start power. So the power savings derived vs the additional cost would take me about 3-5 years to pay for the difference.

Asshole manufacturers. They claim its to save bulbs. But the damn things don't turn back on after a power dip. Frigging hidden costs these assholes know about but can't make it competitive so they LIE! They are already too expensive, so they can't add in the soft start feature without jacking up the price any more. And the margin of savings from electronic vs magnetic is so slim if they did raise the price noone would buy them. And if they don't protect your bulb - there's another $100+ for an electronic ballast bulb - so once again you've blown the savings.

If I had not caught it - I would have gone a day with only 1 t5 light going in the veg room. This would have been the perfect amount of light to hermie everything not directly under the light, or at the very least throw all my moms and veg plants into flower. FUCK SAVING A BULB! I want to know my fucking lights are gonna turn on when they get power. I would MUCH RATHER replace an extra bulb a few months early than lose an entire room. If this happened on a weekend when I'm out of town I would be fucked. Now I HAVE to spend another $160 for the ballasts.

EDIT: and so far no matter what they say - I've seen ZERO problems with lifespan of my bulbs on magnetic ballasts.

I am pissed! These are the latest generation Lumatek ballasts and they SUCK!!!!! Both the 600 and 400 do the same thing.

I am definitely not wasting money on these again.


OK - there - I vented. But for some reason I'm even more pissed now!

{PG takes big bong hit and chills out}



OK - back again...


Now then - the plants are doing fine. Aside from technical difficulties life is good. I only got 3 hrs sleep last nite cause my Mom woke me early to tell me she's getting re-married! Very nice guy and I couldn't be happier for them. She'll be 65 in a month!

Was great news, but I am pooped and I have a friend coming over to help with the ducting. I am trying not to be sour, but I'm really not looking forward to climbing up into the attic of my house to get the 8" and 10" fans down from my old room. Its gonna be 100+ up there, fiberglass insulation, and its prolly 80% humidity here right now. Yummm.

So before I drag everyone into my mire - I will sign off for the time being and be back later with pics I hope.

 

[RippedVanWnkl]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

I have been considering a digital ballast... but they don't restart on a power interruption? They have a manual reset switch or something like a surge protector?

It's good that some light was going. Maybe the girls just thought it was a cloudy day in the veg room. I bet they'll be fine... and your Mom probably will too!

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

I have been considering a digital ballast... but they don't restart on a power interruption? They have a manual reset switch or something like a surge protector?

It's good that some light was going. Maybe the girls just thought it was a cloudy day in the veg room. I bet they'll be fine... and your Mom probably will too!

They don't even have an on/off switch the cheap bastards! There's a rotating knob to set the wattage - and it has an off position, but they say you're supposed to unplug before changing wattage - and since I run at the highest wattage all the time - that would mean rotating through the other settings to get to or from OFF to or from 600W. So its not really an off.

There are reset buttons on the fuses. But they never trip.

And it takes an unnoticeable dip in power to make them not come on. All I do is flip the breaker off and back on again and they'll start right up. All the other lights on that circuit are flos and they don't mind. But if you do it before the ballast decides it wants to turn back on you get nothing. And that wait is somewhere above a minute but less than 15 minutes - I have not been able to get a straight answer on what the time before restart is. Yet another pain in the ass. Even if you want to immediately restart the bulb, the do-gooders at Lumatek have decided they must protect you from yourself. So if you try to restart after only 30 seconds it won't work. You must wait.

And as far as the cloudy day thing goes - I totally hear what you're saying, but if you could see the room you'd see there is not enough lumens making it across the room from the t5s to do anything but damage.

The veg room is 8x14' and the lights are basically at each corner. When the ballasts don't fire its 435w of T5 2" above plants so not much spread vs. 1500w total in the veg room.

If you're gonna get a digital ballast - you might as well resign yourself to needing one of these:

C.A.P. HLC-2e- 15min "On" Delay
[HLC-2e]

$79.95

The HLC-2e by Custom Automated Products protects your light from Hot Starts." A "Hot Start" is when your ballast attempts to resart the bulb without waiting for the bulb to cool off. The HLC-1e constantly monitors the power going to your light. In the event of a power failure, it will not allow the light to restart until 15 minutes after the power is restored. This prevents your light from attempting to "Hot Start" your bulb, preventing bulb damage and increasing bulb life. The HLC-2e is rated at 15 amps @ 120 volts. 3 year warranty.

This is what the ballast is SUPPOSED to do by itself - but they just never start. If it doesn't fire the first time, its not like it waits 3 minutes and tries again. I've waited 45 minutes once or twice. I won't wait any longer than that.

The only reasons I can see to get an electronic ballast are because they are light weight and produce a little less heat and are slightly more efficient. But those pros must be weighed against the cons of intermittent start-ups unless you get this addon, a higher initial cost, and more expensive bulbs. And in my situation it will take me about 3 years to recoup the difference in savings.

Really the ONLY thing I have really liked about them is the weight. Everything else is a tiny improvement at best over magnetic. And the reliability of magnetic is a HUGE pro.

 

[RippedVanWnkl]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

I'm thinking, that I shall consider this longer before taking action... I could always enclose my lamp which would also remove heat from the bloom room.... That might be a more worthwhile improvement, when I decide I'm ready to take it on.

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

I'm thinking, that I shall consider this longer before taking action... I could always enclose my lamp which would also remove heat from the bloom room.... That might be a more worthwhile improvement, when I decide I'm ready to take it on.

If heat is the reason you're considering switching - I would definitely address the hood before the ballast. Basically if you have any working ballast right now - I would ABSOLUTELY invest any time and $ in the air. Anything you do to improve efficiency there will will save you as much if not more than the electronic ballast AND provide better plants. And is a step towards adding CO2 if you ever want to do that.

Hope I'm not sounding know-it-all. I'm baked and enjoying the convo.

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Just one other little thought - getting the environment in the room is like surfing or white water rafting on a standing wave.

You gotta paddle really really hard to get in the curl, but once you're there it just feels like the whole world drops out from under you and you weigh nothing. Then its really easy to stay there.

That's the way I feel about dialing in my rooms.

 

[Green007]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

C.A.P. HLC-2e- 15min "On" Delay
[HLC-2e]

$79.95

The HLC-2e by Custom Automated Products protects your light from Hot Starts." A "Hot Start" is when your ballast attempts to resart the bulb without waiting for the bulb to cool off. The HLC-1e constantly monitors the power going to your light. In the event of a power failure, it will not allow the light to restart until 15 minutes after the power is restored. This prevents your light from attempting to "Hot Start" your bulb, preventing bulb damage and increasing bulb life. The HLC-2e is rated at 15 amps @ 120 volts. 3 year warranty.

Don't you need one of those with a magnetic ballast too?

I was thinking about getting a CAP 400W NEXTGEN 90v-260v Electronic Ballast and didn't think I needed one. Is that just a Lumatek issue?

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Don't you need one of those with a magnetic ballast too?

I was thinking about getting a CAP 400W NEXTGEN 90v-260v Electronic Ballast and didn't think I needed one. Is that just a Lumatec issue?

You can use it with the magnetic, but with magnetic its for protecting your bulb. The electronic ballast protects your bulb, but fails to start up unless the voltage is in a ridiculously small tolerance of perfect. So same piece of gear used for both, but in my opinion its optional on the magnetic and mandatory on the electronic unless you have very stable power. Basically if when your fridge turns on or your A/C or Clothes Washer or anything in the entire house that causes a voltage dip that you can see I think you need one of these for an electronic. Or a UPS, but they are even more expensive.

If you have very good power to your room - commercial grade basically - then I'm sure the electronic ballast would work no probs.

I just don't see why they can't include a 777 timer in there. They cost about $1.50 + $1 in other electronics. They are reliable. Same thing used in almost every windshield wiper timer, or any of about a bazillion other commercial uses where a reliable short timer is required. Put one of these in line with their startup to re-try after 3 minutes. Done! problem solved. Total added cost to the ballast <$5 including manufacturing.

Assholes.

Not just a Lumatek thing. I had a 600 Galaxy as well - it was a generation older and I thought they'd fixed this stuff. Nope. And its not just me. I have talked with a few friends now and learned they had the same experience. Everyone just lives with it.

 

[Stealthy1]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Hope I'm not sounding know-it-all. I'm baked and enjoying the convo.

If you sound like a know-it-all its because you know more than most people. no reason to feel bad about it.
I often get that feeling when Im really into a convo with someone it bothers me I guess to see that look from someone especially after they asked you a question because you "know-it-all". So what if they wanted a one word answer there gonna get the full explanation and like it. I do my best to get the info right because everyone likes to call a know-it-all out if they can....lol

Its not our fault we read science magazines and spent hours searching for that one tidbit of info watch only educational and documentaries on TV and have the audacity to remember it... oh wait I guess it is our fault eh?

Oh I wanted to comment of the hot start thing... thats definitely the cheap way to build them on their part, your right for an extra 5 bucks a unit they could do it right and still profit like a mofo... But the thing I wanted to ask is if you tested you supply voltage for consistency? My last house was on the end of a long power line at the edge of town and the fluctuations were just stupid for a while I had electronics of every kind failing prematurely. I finally tested it on a whim and it was all over the place. The elec company said they couldnt do anything about it(yah right!) so I had to buy a line conditioner when I bought my 50" plasma no way I was gonna let it fry...
My current place is pretty steady though... Not that it matters but something to keep in mind if others dont have that issue as often as you..

EDIT: just read last post where you said same thing basically lol.

 

[Green Utopia]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

If you sound like a know-it-all its because you know more than most people. no reason to feel bad about it.
I often get that feeling when Im really into a convo with someone it bothers me I guess to see that look from someone especially after they asked you a question because you "know-it-all". So what if they wanted a one word answer there gonna get the full explanation and like it. I do my best to get the info right because everyone likes to call a know-it-all out if they can....lol

Its not our fault we read science magazines and spent hours searching for that one tidbit of info watch only educational and documentaries on TV and have the audacity to remember it... oh wait I guess it is our fault eh?

Oh I wanted to comment of the hot start thing... thats definitely the cheap way to build them on their part, your right for an extra 5 bucks a unit they could do it right and still profit like a mofo... But the thing I wanted to ask is if you tested you supply voltage for consistency? My last house was on the end of a long power line at the edge of town and the fluctuations were just stupid for a while I had electronics of every kind failing prematurely. I finally tested it on a whim and it was all over the place. The elec company said they couldnt do anything about it(yah right!) so I had to buy a line conditioner when I bought my 50" plasma no way I was gonna let it fry...
My current place is pretty steady though... Not that it matters but something to keep in mind if others dont have that issue as often as you..

Thanks! Well put on the reading and answers!

re the power - that's exactly right. It needs a conditioner. I had not investigated that as a possibility. What did yours cost?



Edit: Am I on the right track here?:
Tripp Lite 2400-Watt 6-Outlet Line Conditioner And Voltage Regulator

$219 at Sears

 

[usul]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Thank you again Papa! I'm preparing to upgrade my light/reflector/hood/ventilation setup and was planning on a digital ballast. Thanks to your post I can now proceed with some real-world info that cuts through all the marketing hype. I might still go digital but I now know that some sort of power conditioning device is required as well.

Must say, this is the best grow journal I've had the pleasure to read. Papa, you contribution is outstanding, the graphics you've included in your posts are great, and you absolutely must be awarded Member of the Month for May 2010.

Consider yourself nominated.

Fellow growers, if you'd like to add a nomiation and eventaually vote for Papa Green you can do it here.

Keep up the great work Papa - it is so very much appreciated.

 

[Green Utopia]

Thanks for the MOM nomination!!

Wow, Usul, that's a real honor. This is such a great group of folks up here I always feel like I'm getting back more than I give. I'm thrilled to hear others are getting the same experience from my garden!



And as the nice pick-me-ups from this site often do, it comes on a day when I can use a little extra encouragement. Now - feeling newly inspired - I'm off to the attic!

Thanks Again! And reps for thanks! I hope no one thinks of it as a payoff

 

[Jasonlee247]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

WOW, nice breakdown of the SCoG for us. I love it. I'm going to make smaller versions of your PVC screen set up for each plant and tie them together so I can remove them indavidually once each plant finishes since they will each be 2 weeks apart. I'm sick of cutting a nd pasting if you will. I bet Lavendar will eat up your TeK. Great of you do take the time to do this teK for people.

...>So are you going to use Hot start timers for your digitals? I'm still shady about the digitals since I was working in the industry when they were first introduced. They were laded with problems, and from the sounds of it they are still housing a few bugs.

Thanx man. +REP for you my friend.

 

[Jasonlee247]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

well, it wont let me, so will you take a rain check?

 

[Stealthy1]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

Thanks! Well put on the reading and answers!

re the power - that's exactly right. It needs a conditioner. I had not investigated that as a possibility. What did yours cost?



Edit: Am I on the right track here?:
Tripp Lite 2400-Watt 6-Outlet Line Conditioner And Voltage Regulator

$219 at Sears

Wow should have went to sears lol paid about 400 almost 4 yrs ago, but I dont remember the specs on it I only had my TV and fios router hooked up. I went through 3 fios modem/routers in 2 years there.

 

[lavendar]

Re: Papa Green's Utopian Sub v2 - You, Me, and Barney's Farm makes 3 - Perpetual 2000

EXCELLANT thank you....glad you like to teach....well, i have covered it twice now, and hope i'm ready....you may hear some screeching and yowling if i need help....which i'm sure i will....just finished one similar for a class i took, and it sure looks like a scrog, but without the wire....envolved pruning, supercropping and general mutilation of plants....but they took it like true champs....posting pics tonight i think....thank you again, lavendar...now to get the net built...