300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Hypo Hippy]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I got a bitch to pitch: why do you call your Spectra LED 300 a 360?
Granted, light power comparisons are like apples v oranges but...
HIDs have parasitic power supplies too, but we still call them their bulb wattage size.
Spectra 300 is not twice the size of a 180, just twice the price.
And what's up with the funny math on their website?

E=IR and P=EI. E=volts, I=amperes, R=ohms, P=watts
Just because US primary education has become a pathetic world-stage laughing stock doesn't change the physics that I learned many moons ago.

The 180 ad copy is no better:

What's that, 137.5w? The big one draws 264w. Am I confused, or insulted?

Maybe I got out the wrong side of bed, and fell on my head

What say you?
HH

 

[NCDude]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

When you said you 'topped dressed' your plants with OC+, you spinkeled some on top?

I've been reading your posts, and there is so much merit in 'keeping in simple'....I live in a medium sized city in the bible belt...we now have 3 'garden-hydro' stores here, and they have row after row of nuits, and most are expensive as hell! I think they rely on 'snob' effect marketing, you know 'Its got to be expensive and complicated to be any good....

Heck, Im a amature hobby guy, and everytime I turn around I need bulbs, or I need soil, or this and that....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

My next project is to come up with a resonable priced 'soil'...last trip to the store cost me $40 + for bags of dirt

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

DAY 45 FLOWERING CONT.



THE LED PLANTS

THE HID PLANTS

Both groups are bulking up nicely. Since yesterday, I think the HID buds may have caught up a little in overall size, but as Irish pointed out, the structure of the HID buds looks a little looser and more irregular than the LED buds, and that's the difference I'm feeling when I squeeze them.

Dark cycle temps are dropping to 65-70, which is great, but the RH is up to 55-60 again because it's raining. I'm keeping an eye out for mold, but so far so good. I'm going to set up my dehumidifier tonight because it looks like it's going to be raining for a while.



This grow is on-track and I'm doing my best to keep it that way

 

[Two Tokes]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Thanks for helping me lose weight. Pictures that sweet, I don't need dessert tonight.

The LED buds are definitely the visual top.

 

[IrishBoy]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

it looks like the HID is frosting up more now then the LED is this what u see in person? i am really baked right now so not sure if its just me.lol or it just could be the camera angle?

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

whats the brand name of the powder stuff? i love the powder stuff, but of course not in that way i mean as plant food goes!!!

Same brand, Maxicrop, they also make a powder version.

what about this GH Bio weed?

If it's cold-processed and 100% sea kelp derived specifically from Ascophyllum nodosum, from a trusted mfg, then I'd think it would be OK.

BTW, the active ingredient in Humboldt's Bushmaster is 1.5% Ascophyllum nodosum (sea kelp).

 

[IrishBoy]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Same brand, Maxicrop, they also make a powder version.

what about this GH Bio weed?


If it's cold-processed and 100% sea kelp derived specifically from Ascophyllum nodosum, from a trusted mfg, then I'd think it would be OK.

BTW, the active ingredient in Humboldt's Bushmaster is 1.5% Ascophyllum nodosum (sea kelp).

ya i notice that. i was looking at the Age Old dry kelp stuff, its a big bag for cheap.

 

[molotov]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

DAY 45 FLOWERING CONT.



THE LED PLANTS

THE HID PLANTS

Both groups are bulking up nicely. Since yesterday, I think the HID buds may have caught up a little in overall size, but as Irish pointed out, the structure of the HID buds looks a little looser and more irregular than the LED buds, and that's the difference I'm feeling when I squeeze them.

Dark cycle temps are dropping to 65-70, which is great, but the RH is up to 55-60 again because it's raining. I'm keeping an eye out for mold, but so far so good. I'm going to set up my dehumidifier tonight because it looks like it's going to be raining for a while.



This grow is on-track and I'm doing my best to keep it that way

I was thinking SS. I agree that the led's are bulkier than the hid plants. But to me it looks like a lot of that bulk is leaf structure in the buds. Not that this is bad since they are smothered in trichomes. The led plants seem to be leafier from the get go. I just wonder if the led plants are going to have leafier buds then the hid's if that makes sense. They might be thicker and denser but the hid plants might end up having better bag appeal. Just a thought.

 

[WattSaver]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I've been lurking and reading over the past few months, and I want to say thank you for all the information I've picked up. Not only this thread which has been done in an excellent fashion, but also the hempie, OC+, and Irish's turmoil to excellence and many more. I did some outdoor growin' lets say 3 decades ago, and just this yr tried the indoor grow and started in the LED sphere. Thank you again SS (& many others) you've made me a better indoor grower already.

I got a bitch to pitch: why do you call your Spectra LED 300 a 360?
Granted, light power comparisons are like apples v oranges but...
HIDs have parasitic power supplies too, but we still call them their bulb wattage size.
Spectra 300 is not twice the size of a 180, just twice the price.
And what's up with the funny math on their website?

I have to follow this same line. I've seen the 3W claim (not just by GLH) but when I count the brightly colored diodes in the photos I always come up with more than 130, another fundamental math ???. I believe that LED is the future for the indoor grow, & when I purchased my panel I did a lot of research and as a consumer, I didn't even bother with any panel that didn't give a full disclosure of light spectrum bands. Red Blue White isn't enough info to spend $1000. The light I purchased is a 6 band combo 1w & 3w listed as a 350w fixture that has 320w of lights and a total power draw of 356w (3.3 amps) it has 168 diodes so 40% are 3w. I'd really like to know the count on the # of little light spots on the GLH. I've gotten good results with my panel, but SS's results are just as good if not better, and this could be the difference in lights or SS is just a better grower than I am.

Please keep up the good work SS, can't wait to hear the fat lady sing

 

[dogsnova]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Watt, it's on page 8... lol... I know 74 pages is a lot to read but there is a lot of good info on this tread.. Probably one of the most LED informative treads on the net...

Here I will save you some time...

Mine's the same, 22 X 12.

 

[WattSaver]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Watt, it's on page 8... lol... I know 74 pages is a lot to read but there is a lot of good info on this tread.. Probably one of the most LED informative treads on the net...

Here I will save you some time...

Thank you dogsnova. 12x22=264 (I didn't see any empty spots)
MY assumption aprox 380w draw, 40w for transformer & fans = aprox 340w lights. So the split would be 226 1w & 38 3w thats 17% 3w, there are several assumptions here and alot of tech stuff that is beyond my knowledge, but I'm pretty sure this isn't a full fledged 3w panel. I hope Mike can get his legal shit figured out and be able to do some full disclosure. This is one of the best results I've seen under LED and I'd like to know the baseline to compare to the next advance in LED technology.

Correction from my previous post my panel has 229 diodes not 168 and that changes my 3w % to 20

 

[lbezphil2005]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

DAY 45 FLOWERING CONT.



THE LED PLANTS

THE HID PLANTS

Both groups are bulking up nicely. Since yesterday, I think the HID buds may have caught up a little in overall size, but as Irish pointed out, the structure of the HID buds looks a little looser and more irregular than the LED buds, and that's the difference I'm feeling when I squeeze them.

Dark cycle temps are dropping to 65-70, which is great, but the RH is up to 55-60 again because it's raining. I'm keeping an eye out for mold, but so far so good. I'm going to set up my dehumidifier tonight because it looks like it's going to be raining for a while.



This grow is on-track and I'm doing my best to keep it that way

Wow!! Everything looking great, bro!!

 

[eBUD]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration


=m loving the equal representation of the LED vs HID. The PPP`s are looking sticky and fantastic already SS.
You are going to do a full bud review on the comparison grow as well as a Dry weight comparison correct? Either way i`m down for watching all of it unfold. Keep up the amazing work!

 

[eBUD]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration


Im loving the equal representation of the LED vs HID. The PPP`s are looking sticky and fantastic already SS.
You are going to do a full bud review on the comparison grow as well as a Dry weight comparison correct? Either way i`m down for watching all of it unfold. Keep up the amazing work!

 

[Keith Lake]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

What's the harvest ETA Dr. Sun?

 

[astroastro]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Down the terminology rat hole continued... a note about power delivery to the LED's. There have been a number of references to the power supplies in this forum such as the following, so below is a simplified description of a typical power supply for LED's. Again- terms are being used in describing power supplies such as 'Watt' which is only going to serve to confuse even more people about how much power an LED fixture is actually applying to the LED devices.

Thank you dogsnova. 12x22=264 (I didn't see any empty spots)
MY assumption aprox 380w draw, 40w for transformer & fans = aprox 340w lights. So the split would be 226 1w & 38 3w thats 17% 3w, there are several assumptions here and alot of tech stuff that is beyond my knowledge, but I'm pretty sure this isn't a full fledged 3w panel.

The above quote is kind of an example of the various discussions that have been going on here about power supplies- I am not really addressing anything specific in this quote- just an explanation of how the LED power supply (driver) typically operates.

The basic LED driver is, at the core, a DC-DC converter- it is not a 'ballast' as is sometimes described in LED marketers' language (some even say 'no ballast required'- Ha!!!). A good LED driver will be designed as 'voltage clamped, constant current driver'. The driver will have a transformer on it- but this transformer does not operate in the traditional fashion that many people will think about how a transformer typically works, i.e., voltage step up, step down, or isolation. It is a 'switching' transformer, and in the case of a PWM switching converter (LED driver), the transformer is used as an energy storage mechanism. In the simplest sense, energy is injected into the transformer at high speed with a fast transistor (typically a 'MosFET') in an 'on/ off' manner. The 'on' and 'off' time of the transistor is duty cycle modulated (PWM). A long 'on' time (short 'off' time) would allow more power to flow to the LED, a short 'on' time (long 'off' time) would allow less power to flow to the LED. The transformer supplies power to the LED when the transistor is 'off' (the storage mechanism). Because we are in control of this transistor 'on' and 'off' time (again, PWM), we can control how much power is delivered to the LED.

Switch mode converters of this sort are extremely efficient- any competent power engineer can design a reliable LED driver operating at 85-90% efficiency. The addition of a power factor corrector at the input of the driver will solve most of the line AC waveform distortion and (some) EMI issues associated with these types of drivers (the down side of PWM switch mode power conversion), important for high power designs or applications where you have from hundreds to thousands of Watts operating in a single installation- but PFC for another day.

The metrics associated with characterizing the quality of the electrical design of the LED driver are pretty much standardized- we have computerized power supply testers which will run the LED driver through all the various operating aspects and will output the results- efficiency, effective power factor correction, etc. I have yet to see any of this data on any of the LED websites- just more confusing 'Watt' data- I cannot tell on many of these sites if the power shown in Watts is the AC Watts into the driver, or DC Watts out of the driver and into to the LED. Again- Watts as a metric of LED fixture quality are being used in a kind of loosey goosey way which is not indicative of the quality of light associated with the fixture- the only way to tell this is with an actual spectral chart of the photonic output of the fixture.

Complete LED driver data would show the relative quality of the core LED driver design, however long term reliability of the LED driver is probably more related to the quality of the components installed and the level of quality control applied in the manufacturing process. I have spent a fair amount of my career designing around these power topologies- Buck, CUK, Step Up, SEPIC, Resonant, Flyback, etc., etc., so if anyone has any questions on these I may be able to help.

 

[turttle]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[
I think that its cool he post max power cunsumpsion and outpute.I realy dont know all the terms but I would amagine it takes power to run fans and power supply converter.As for the outpute to the leds them selves they are slightly under 3 watts.They dont run leds at their max wattage from what I have read.If you run a 3 watt diode at 3 watts lumens and reliability will be less than if you were to run it at 2.5watts as they are bighter and cooler.I am not saying this is how glh lights are but when it comes to led diodes they dont run @Max of what diode is rated its always under so 2.5 watts is brighter than running it at 3 watts.
But any way nice thread.These lights seem to be working realy good.I have noticed finish times are a bit longer than hid.With my light different model I have notices tricks just pack up and stretch to the led light.And the spectrum realy pumps the sugars in the plant.I personally like both hps and led they just have both their ups and downs.I know if I leave the house I would leave my led on a timer before I would ever leave home with my hps running

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Do you see any difference between the lamps in terms of calyx/leaf ratio or thickness of the leaf in the buds, or too early to tell? Nice lookin' African spears ya' got there.

b

thanks bel! I took a careful gander at things during last night's pic session and I'll report my impressions as part of the pic update I'm posting today.

PPP has made me curious about other African sativas, but they have longer flowering and are lankier. Even the mini Malawi Gold needs to be flipped after a week to stay under 3'. PPP requires less patience, less headroom, and though it's African genes were crossed with "a fat indica from the US", it's buzz, IMO, is pure sativa.

For me, a mostly indoor grower who prefers sativas and 8-9wk flowering times, PPP is a "holy grail" strain.

ummm i like those resons did you wash them before putting them on top?

Yep, I rinsed them with tap water to wash all the dust off before adding them to the buckets. They increased my watering interval by one day, as well as doing all those other good things I listed.

When you said you 'topped dressed' your plants with OC+, you spinkeled some on top?

I've been reading your posts, and there is so much merit in 'keeping in simple'....I live in a medium sized city in the bible belt...we now have 3 'garden-hydro' stores here, and they have row after row of nuits, and most are expensive as hell! I think they rely on 'snob' effect marketing, you know 'Its got to be expensive and complicated to be any good....

Heck, Im a amature hobby guy, and everytime I turn around I need bulbs, or I need soil, or this and that....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

My next project is to come up with a resonable priced 'soil'...last trip to the store cost me $40 + for bags of dirt

I sprinkled it on top and then worked it into the medium as deeply as I could with my fingers being careful to not damage any major roots. When you top-dress with anything, it generally works better if you work it in.

There is a huge industry that has thrived and prospered under people's mistaken belief that cannabis requires specialized and expensive products to do well.

It's an extraordinary plant, but it doesn't need any extraordinary products to reach it's full potential. That has much more to do with genetics and environment than anything you can buy in a bottle.

The industry that was spawned through manipulating the myth that cannabis has special requirements has no interest in keeping things simple because simple doesn't sell product. Expensive product lines with literally dozens of different bottles and supplements bear witness.

Thanks for helping me lose weight. Pictures that sweet, I don't need dessert tonight.

The LED buds are definitely the visual top.

Well, this time of year, anything that helps us lose weight is good.

Buuuuurrrrppppppppp .

I hope today's pic update has the same effect, but I assure you that if you smoked some, all bets are off, lol.

it looks like the HID is frosting up more now then the LED is this what u see in person? i am really baked right now so not sure if its just me.lol or it just could be the camera angle?

These ladies, although they are genetically identical being from the same mom, have some variation between them. A couple of the plants in each tent are frostier than their tent-mates, and those are the ones I've focused on when taking pics to show frostiness. Since both tents shared this phenomenon, I didn't see it as unfair to focus on those plants in each tent for the pics, but when I last took those two plants out for pics, I tried to match their size, and the LED plant that matched up best wasn't one of the two plants in that tent that were somewhat frostier than the others, while the HID plant was one of the two frostier ladies in their tent, hence the discrepancy.

So, all that to say that your powers of observation were possibly enhanced by your state of bakedness .

i was going to ask you about that, ive been looking and taking bud pics for a long time so ive kinda learned how to look at buds/plants and really focus of the formation if you get it right then you can tell most times in pics if their filled in dense ect...

maybe a video some time will show us the real story so we can get that 3D effect.

Next update after today's will be a video .

ya i notice that. i was looking at the Age Old dry kelp stuff, its a big bag for cheap.

Do you have a link for the Age Old dry kelp?

I was thinking SS. I agree that the led's are bulkier than the hid plants. But to me it looks like a lot of that bulk is leaf structure in the buds. Not that this is bad since they are smothered in trichomes. The led plants seem to be leafier from the get go. I just wonder if the led plants are going to have leafier buds then the hid's if that makes sense. They might be thicker and denser but the hid plants might end up having better bag appeal. Just a thought.

I get the best feel for those issues when I handle and trim the buds after harvest, so I'll be able to comment more on that after I trim and manicure.

I've been lurking and reading over the past few months, and I want to say thank you for all the information I've picked up.

Please keep up the good work SS, can't wait to hear the fat lady sing

thanks WattSaver!

I hope this grow and journal, along with GLH, can provide you with the info and details you're seeking.

Watt, it's on page 8... lol... I know 74 pages is a lot to read but there is a lot of good info on this tread.. Probably one of the most LED informative treads on the net...

Here I will save you some time...

thanks dogs, you definitely saved me some work and time trying to find that, and I very much appreciate it .

If you gotta problem with outputs exceeding inputs, you probably also have a problem with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and yer perpetual motion machines Waddya mean there's no free lunch?

b

I could swear my dogs' output exceeds their input .

Wow!! Everything looking great, bro!!

thank you phil!

Update coming up

=m loving the equal representation of the LED vs HID. The PPP`s are looking sticky and fantastic already SS.
You are going to do a full bud review on the comparison grow as well as a Dry weight comparison correct? Either way i`m down for watching all of it unfold. Keep up the amazing work!

I'm going to do a "harvest index" on this grow, so this is my plan:

1. Chop plants at soil line and weigh them immediately before doing any trimming.

2. Trim off fan leaves and hang plants to dry.

3. After drying, do final trimming on the buds and report dry weights individually for each plant.

4. Report on bud quality and do smoke report for LED and HID groups
individually.

bel, if I'm missing something important, please let me know.

thank you eBUD, and glad you're onboard!

What's the harvest ETA Dr. Sun?

Should be around 2 more weeks or thereabouts if they go 9 weeks. From my reading and research on PPP, they sometimes pack it on heavy towards the end and can benefit greatly from going an extra week, so max 3 weeks.

I'm looking to harvest with a low percentage of amber trichs, so that's what I'll base my decision to chop on.

thanks Soniq

and if willing, please don't hesitate to apply your statistical skills and reporting to the numbers I generate

 

[Planter]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

looking good SS. i really do enjoy ur thread. have u checked the trichs yet at all. just wondering on what u think which plant will finish first. from the pics i would say the HID would finish first but it all goes by the trichs. do u know the difference in the two with the trichs colors??

 

[Old Goat]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

SS,



I found out today that the 150w CMH bulbs will run just fine in digital ballasts, and I have two 150w digital ballasts and two hoods that will fit in one of my tents.

Two 150w CMH vs two 180w LED's would be a possibility. I could pit them against the 360w Spectra, but not sure if running two HID hoods vs a single LED panel would be fair.



In my research on the CMH bulbs with Digital is that they'll burn (light) for some time and not give off the proper color spec. If this makes sense. Also very possible the room temp will be higher than under magnetic? Double check me on this though I often do! It's just that when I reheck I forgot what I was researching.: