LED Recirc - DWC Tangerine Dream Cabinet Grow

[jcool09]

I have done three complete grow cycles since my first Caramelicous journal was aborted. That effort was doomed from the beginning when I chose STG cubes for germination and the fork was inserted fully when root rot took over in my way-too-small DWC buckets. I was disappointed and went back to the drawing board. A bruised ego combined with a failing business put my journalling efforts on hold for almost two years. For those of you who have put the time in and have done grow journals, I salute you. It is time consuming but it is the best way to transfer knowledge and help out the newcomers and those who want to try different growing methods. This journal will be an attempt to share what I have learned and to also encourage ideas that can make this and other grows more sucessful.

Let's take a minute to get caught up on what has happened since 2009.

My first grow after "Failureicious" was a single feminized Super Lemon Haze that used the same cabinet but I changed to a DIY drip-NFT type of setup. I upgraded the CFLs to a 250W universal ballast and ran 20/4 for 4 weeks and 12/12 for 12 weeks (sativa requires patience...) after which I pulled some primo bud. It was hung to dry for about 4 days, into the canning jars after that. The yield from this one plant was significant- about 8 quarts.

In between grows 2 and 3 I decided to add another cabinet to the mix. Unfortunately Lowes had discontinued the size that I had purchased originally so I had to get a slightly smaller model with an inside width of only 23.5" which has caused me grief as I have been struggling to find containers for DWC that will fit and are deep enough. This cab has been my cloning / mom / veg area with 25-125W CFL and various grow mediums so I can dedicate the bigger 18"x36" cabinet to flowering.

The third grow was my first experience auto-flower strains. I grew 4 Easy Ryder II aka Low Ryder plants in the cabinet with FFOF soil. The bud quality was OK but the heat from the HID and soil limitations resulted in crispy tops and a lower than expected yield. I will say that those Low Ryders were said to be very small, perfect for stealth grows, and they were. I was not as patient with the manicure / drying / curing process the second time and the results showed. The bud was jarred while too moist and as a result cured too long and got dark brown and bitter. Don't worry I smoked it all anyway Yield was 2 quarts.

Grow number four was another auto variety, White Dwarf, which I started in the first version of the DWC setup I will use for this grow. The original design only had the 7.5 gallon "bucket" shared by two WD plants. When I switched to the flowering cycle (nutes only, since it was an auto) I replaced the 250W HID with an 180W LED from Advanced. I also added an external reservior in the last few weeks because I needed to go out of town for 5 days and had to figure out a way to keep them alive. The total cycle from germination day to harvest was 76 days on an 18/6 cycle. First 4 weeks veg nutes next 6 bloom nutes and 1 week of flush with plain water. They were hung and dried for 4 days and went into jars about a week ago. The yield from 2 plants was about 6 quarts.

So what are we doing now? When I germinated the WD I also germinated a single feminized Tangerine Dream plant. At the 4 week mark when I changed the nutes in the DWC they were sharing from veg to bloom I took 12 clones from her. I put them in 1" rockwool cubes with some Olivia's cloning gel and placed them in an uncovered tray in the veg cabinet. In the past I have used trays with humidity domes but I have since learned that the clones will take longer to root if they are getting moisture through their leaves. Made sense to me and I had 100% success with this batch. There was no rush at all since I knew the other cab would be in use until late July. The clones had 7 weeks to root, get topped, get transplanted into 3" netpots with loose rockwool filler around original 1" cubes, and get topped yet again.

This journal starts when things are getting interesting- the flowering cycle! She's a Sativa so I'm estimating she'll finish in about 12 weeks around Halloween.

What strain is it? Barney's Farm Tangerine Dream
Is it Indica, Sativa or Hybrid? What percentages? Mostly Sativa
Is it in Veg or Flower stage? Flower
If in Veg... For how long? Original mom germinated on May 9, clones taken June 7.
If in Flower stage... For how long? 12/12 started on 8/2/11
Indoor or outdoor? Indoor
Soil or Hydro? Hydro - Recirculating DWC
Size of light? 180W LED panel
Is it aircooled? y
Temp of Room/cab? 72/84
RH of Room/cab? 45/50
PH of media or res? 5-6
Any Pests ? No
Type and strength of ferts used? Liquid hydroponic nutrients and conditioners, granular bloom additive.
Bucket Size - 7.5 Gallon DWC "root box" plus 20 gallon reservior.
Meduim - 1" rockwool cubes surrounded by loose rockwool in 3" netpots.
Lights - Advanced LED 180W
Nutrients - GH Grow/Bloom, Floralicious Plus, Monster Bloom. DM Zone, Botanicare Silica Blast
# of Plants: 4

 

[Mr. Krip]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Nice to see a new journal from you, JC, and an honor to be the first to post. I'm sub'd, of course, and wishing you the best for a bountiful harvest!

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Nice to see a new journal from you, JC, and an honor to be the first to post. I'm sub'd, of course, and wishing you the best for a bountiful harvest!

Thank's Krip. It was you and Stevehman that have encouraged me to get off my butt. Gotta work on getting some pics together now.

 

[Mr. Krip]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

...I had to get a slightly smaller model with an inside width of only 23.5" which has caused me grief as I have been struggling to find containers for DWC that will fit and are deep enough...

BTW...how many containers are you looking to fit in that space. The waterfarm buckets fit well, since they're about 10" wide, so I can get two squeezed in to my cab which is about the same size as yours. I believe you can get similar buckets (without the waterfarms) from Sunlight Supply. I have their catalog, so if needed, let me know and I can get you part#'s.

EDIT: I just searched their website, here is the ones I'm referring to:

https://sunlightsupply.com/p-13831-flo-n-gro-blue-bucket-for-bucket-system.aspx

They also have tops and netpots that fit - look at the "related products"!

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

BTW...how many containers are you looking to fit in that space. The waterfarm buckets fit well, since they're about 10" wide, so I can get two squeezed in to my cab which is about the same size as yours. I believe you can get similar buckets (without the waterfarms) from Sunlight Supply. I have their catalog, so if needed, let me know and I can get you part#'s.

I just searched their website, here is the ones I'm referring to:

Thanks for joining my thread and for the suggestion Krip. Those look like exactly what I need, down to the drain hole at the bottom. My DIY buckets and reservior all use rubber grommets and 1/2" connectors. I think the bucket you sent has the same size as I need to drill a 3/4" hole for my fittings.

 

[jcool09]

Water sources for Hydroponics

One of my goals with this thread is to solicit feedback on various aspects of the grow process as it relates to hydroponics. Now would be a good time to bring one of these up as my lazy ass has not added any pics to this journal yet

I have seen many opinions on various water sources for hydroponics. I have heard members mentioning RO or reverse osmosis water but I have no idea what is involved or if it is practical when I need 30 gallons for a res change.

My SLH grow was done with bottled spring water. This would not be convenient or cost-effective in my current setup. My recent WD grow used tap water. I store it in a plastic 30 gal trash container that has wheels on the bottom. I clean the can between refills with H202 and keep it aerated with an airstone when full.

I am interested to know what our fellow hydro growers would do in this scenario.

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Your crop yield measured in volume, not weight: priceless.

My first harvest, long ago filled half a large shopping bagfull.
Made me happy through a long, self-indulgent summer of

 

[Mr. Krip]

Re: Water sources for Hydroponics

One of my goals with this thread is to solicit feedback on various aspects of the grow process as it relates to hydroponics. Now would be a good time to bring one of these up as my lazy ass has not added any pics to this journal yet

I have seen many opinions on various water sources for hydroponics. I have heard members mentioning RO or reverse osmosis water but I have no idea what is involved or if it is practical when I need 30 gallons for a res change.

My SLH grow was done with bottled spring water. This would not be convenient or cost-effective in my current setup. My recent WD grow used tap water. I store it in a plastic 30 gal trash container that has wheels on the bottom. I clean the can between refills with H202 and keep it aerated with an airstone when full.

I am interested to know what our fellow hydro growers would do in this scenario.

JCool, I think you'll find the preferred water for hydro growers is R/O (reverse osmosis). I happen to use plain tap water, but I'm quite sure I am the exception to the rule!

While a typical water filter removes many chemicals and pathogens from the water, a R/O system removes EVERYTHING so the reading from R/O on a TDS meter will be 0.0.

Growers like starting out with 0.0 since then they know EVERYTHING that's going into their plants, and they can get PPM's higher on the nutes (when measureing PPM's on nutes, you should include the PPM's of the water!).

R/O does also filter out things like calcium and magnesium, so you'll most likely need to supplement with some cal-mag to avoid deficiencies.

One of the benefits of using tap water is that I've NEVER had to add cal-mag, but I'm in an area with good tap water and many people do not have good quality of tap water, so it wouldn't even be an option.

You can get an R/O unit for a couple/few hundred dollars that will connect to a faucet like a water filter. They have larger, more expensive units, that will R/O every faucet in the house.

You just need to make sure you get one that will give you enough flow so it doesn't take 5 hours just to fill the res.

I hope this helps!

K

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

I use city tap water, medium hard @240 or so ppm. Ca to Mg ratio world-wide is usually similar to most plant's fave. A little sodium doesn't hurt much. Pure water falls from the sky, if you can catch it. RO units reject to waste 5X what they yield; sooo not green.

 

[jcool09]

Re: Water sources for Hydroponics

Your crop yield measured in volume, not weight: priceless.

My first harvest, long ago filled half a large shopping bagfull.
Made me happy through a long, self-indulgent summer of

Hey Propa Gator, thanks for stopping by. I'm in one of the Red States so the last thing I want anywhere near my setup is a scale... I had a grow partner that had his apartment raided in NY about 15 years ago. Good guy, took all the heat, never ratted me out. What kept him out of jail was that there was no "selling paraphernalia" in the apartment.

JCool, I think you'll find the preferred water for hydro growers is R/O (reverse osmosis). I happen to use plain tap water, but I'm quite sure I am the exception to the rule!

While a typical water filter removes many chemicals and pathogens from the water, a R/O system removes EVERYTHING so the reading from R/O on a TDS meter will be 0.0.

Growers like starting out with 0.0 since then they know EVERYTHING that's going into their plants, and they can get PPM's higher on the nutes (when measureing PPM's on nutes, you should include the PPM's of the water!).

R/O does also filter out things like calcium and magnesium, so you'll most likely need to supplement with some cal-mag to avoid deficiencies.

One of the benefits of using tap water is that I've NEVER had to add cal-mag, but I'm in an area with good tap water and many people do not have good quality of tap water, so it wouldn't even be an option.

You can get an R/O unit for a couple/few hundred dollars that will connect to a faucet like a water filter. They have larger, more expensive units, that will R/O every faucet in the house.

You just need to make sure you get one that will give you enough flow so it doesn't take 5 hours just to fill the res.

I hope this helps!

K

Krip, I can definitely see the benefit of R/O if you're trying to filter out something bad in the water. I know from reading that chlorine in the water is bad for the plants but it dissapates naturally from the water after it sits for 30 minutes. This is one of the reasons why I do 30 gallon batches. The other reason is that it is nice and easy to adjust the PH one time in a large container. Is there anything else that we would want to remove? My thought is that if it's safe for humans to drink then it should be safe for plants...

I used a TDS meter during the SLH grow. When preparing a batch I would just record the baseline of the tap water and then subtract it from the reading after the nutes were added. I'll reserve my thoughts on monitoring PPM in another post.

 

[jcool09]

Odor control in a stealth grow

OK, some more fodder to pique your interest in this text-only (pics coming this weekend, I promise!) journal...

I have looked at various methods for odor control over the past two years in my grow location. I will quickly summarize what I tried and the results:

Odor absorbing gel (ONA, Natural Magic)
This is a quick-fix that can be used for small "problems". Natural Magic can be found at HD or Lowes by the cleaning supplies. Useful in the cabinet at the beginning stages I found that once my plants were a few weeks old the gel was no longer effective.

External Ventilation
This has been the saving grace for my grow. It solved most of my odor and heat problems. It was a pain in the ass to get the venting up through the wall into the attic but I did not want to use a window or other ground-level vent. I have fans in the cabinet that push air into the vent and an in-line fan up in the attic to increase the flow. The vent terminates in an eave that I have sealed off to prevent wind from blowing the exhaust back into the open attic.

Control the airflow
My cabinet sucks (by design)! I have used 1/4" foam weather stripping to seal up around and between my cabinet doors. I also removed a large section of the middle of the cabinet base to allow air flow in from the bottom. When used in combination with the external ventilation fresh, cool air is sucked in from the bottom of the cabinet, through the grow zone, and out the top vent. Sealing the doors also keeps the fans inside the cabinet from spreading odors out into the room.

Ozone Generator
These are not to be used inside a cabinet! Plants do not like O3 concentrations and will present a measle-like spotting like on their leaves. I use mine out in the main room to control the essence when I am working with the cabinet doors open. To me O3 has it's own "suspicious" smell when concentrated so I would not use it full time for odor control. I use the C.A.P. OZN-1 good for deodorizing up to 5500 cubic feet, O3 output is 1000 mg/hr. This unit can be purchased for about $125 and is well worth the investment. Note: it is not a "corona discharge" ozone generator so there is no concern about nitric acid formation.

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

DWC setup

You're looking at a two tank system. The external tank is outside the left side of the cabinet to help you better visualize how the two tanks sit next to each other.

External reservior

Internal reservior

The current setup is simple and works with gravity. The water reaches the same level in each container althogh the internal reservior has a lower overall capacity (12 gal) than the external one (20 gal). They are connected together towards their bottom in the middle using a 3/4" hole / grommet and 1/2 PVC connectors and black 1/2" tubing. Each reservior has it's own air pump, a small pump with one 4" round airstone in the external and a high capacity pump with 4 small airstones in the internal.

For the purpose of measuring nutrients properly it is important to know that capacity of the reservior. At this stage the reservior is not recirculating so nutes are only added to the internal reservior. I will start to recirculate in a week or two when the plants start to develop flowers and will require more nutrients between res changes. Right now it takes 7.5 gallons to fill the internal reservior to the desired level which conveniently corresponds to the horizontal ridge that circles the container. As the plants drink from the internal reservior fresh water is drawn in from the external reservior. You can see the desired water level range marked with black tape on the mid-back of the external reservior. I leave it uncovered to let the water "breathe" and so I can quickly eyball the water level to make sure it's in range. Large reserviors will let you extend the time needed between maintenance. I was able to leave my last grow unattended for 4 days with this current setup.

Lessons learned over time:
- Make the reservior as big as possible to minimize swings in PH and water level.
- Make it light-proof to and leakproof.
- Don't do DWC in containers < 5 gallons.
- Res temps must stay < 75 degrees.
- Use a product like DM Zone to prevent root rot.
- Do not use Superthrive in your reservior.
- Make things portable, interchangable, movable, etc.
- Use a reservior that is appropriately sized for the stage of your grow. Less is needed during germination and seedling stages than during veg or flower.
- Grommets seal better for me than PVC plumbing and washers.
- Always test your tank for leaks before you put it in your cabinet.
- Must disinfect all containers, tubing, airstones, etc. Anything that is going to come in contact with the reservior should be sterilized.
- I use H202 Hydrogen Peroxide to sterilize everything b/c it's safe to handle and its residue is not toxic to the plants.
- Do this as often as you can. I have my H202 in a sprayer right in the grow area so it is easy to apply.

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Day 4 12/12

I didn't take any close-ups, it's just leaves and stems at this point. My SLH, also a Sativa-dominant, didn't show me anything for almost two weeks. I have about 18 inches of headroom to raise the light so I need to keep this in mind as the flowering progresses. The LEDs are powerful and will bleach the leaves that get to close to the middle of the light. I plan to combat the stretching by bending and tying the stems to manipulate the height and direction of growth. ScroG is ideal for height control but complicates reservior maintenance since the plants can no longer be moved. The ScroG screen would need to be fixed to the lid of the reservior instead of the side of the cabinet.

Here is a view of the Advanced 180W currently 18" from the plant tops.

And then the rest of the setup above the light. You can see the venting setup, how the light is suspended and adjusted, and the foam insulation that was used in areas to make the cabinet more airtight.

 

[Mr. Krip]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Looks good, JCool! I like the setup!

How many plant are you gonna flower at once in the res/space?

 

[Littllman2469]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Jcool09 I like the set up, that 180 looks perfect in there. I'm impressed with your use of gravity. I never thought of DWC being an option for me, but you make it look ez. I can't wate to see your cabinet fill up with glistening goodness.

 

[SteveHman]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Everything is looking very nice in the cabinet. Well done.

I ordered a C.A.P. OZN-1 to remove some of the odor from my grow and I plan to use it as a disinfectant between grows (seal up the area and run it for 12 hours).

I also ordered a 100gpd RO filter. You can hook one up to your 30 gal storage res with a float valve so that it will shut off when full.

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Looks good, JCool! I like the setup!

How many plant are you gonna flower at once in the res/space?

Thanks, Krip. I'm going to try 4 plants this time. These are the first clones that I have introduced to the cabinet. In the past I have grown from seed with about 4 weeks of veg so the plants are larger when they hit 12/12. Stevehman has shown that plants can go from clone environment directly to flower, I have to give props to his work with NFT and LEDs. I would recommend reading up on this threads to anyone who has not done so already. My clones were started on 6/7 so they have been rooted for quite some time. They were maintained under a 24W CFL with 1/4 strength nutes and have been topped twice to keep their height down and encourage branching. I have done 1, 2, and 4 plant grows in this cabinet. The 4 plant grow was LR in soil and produced miniature plants. My goal with 4 clones is to get as many tops without overcrowding.

Jcool09 I like the set up, that 180 looks perfect in there. I'm impressed with your use of gravity. I never thought of DWC being an option for me, but you make it look ez. I can't wate to see your cabinet fill up with glistening goodness.

Thanks for your post, Littllman. DWC is easy if you read up on journals and avoid the pitfalls. First and foremost build a system that does not leak and check it continually to make sure! Having easy access to LOTS of water is a plus. I go through about 40 gallons every 2 weeks to fill the res and maintain the water level. It takes some routine maintenance to keep the system healthy. Keeping PH in the 5-6 range and maintaining the water level is mandatory. I adust my res down to 5.0 and the chemistry of the grow process gradually brings it up to 6.0 over a period of days. Currently with the 7.5 non-recirc configuration the PH will remain in range for 2-3 days. You will find that the interval and amount of maintenance is directly related to the size of your reservior. Bigger is easier and better for the plants as well.

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

The other cabinet

The second cabinet was added between my second and third cabinet grow. The original plan was to use it for a veg / clone / mom area. I have used it primarily for this but also use it to hang my buds while drying. The timing of this had not been problematic, this past harvest was the first time I had to relocate clones for 4 days while the WD buds dried (prior to moving to jars).

The following are two pics of my most recent attempt to do a mini-DWC

This was the last clone I saved from the original TD mom plant. I noticed it was starting to look a little droopy- a sign that root rot may be setting in. Here's a pic of the roots from the plant you see above. The roots are pretty bad already I dont think she would have lasted much longer.

This was OK with me- I have no future plans to grow another batch of TD. I was trying to see if I could use the DM Zone to control root rot in a 1.5 gallon reservior. They say a picture is worth a thousand words... Pythuim d. DM Zone in 11 days.

Since the health of the overall plant had not gotten too bad yet I was able to take 4 clones and preserve the pheno in case I change my mind or someone else wants to try it. 1-2 Gigabud plants will be added soon- they will be my next grow after the TD harvest in late October.

The 125W CFL has been reoplaced with a 24W CFL. I use a bin with water or nutes 1/4" deep in the bottom. I do not cover the clones. I believe that forcing the plant to receive all of it's moisture through the rockwool will force the clone to root faster.

 

[SteveHman]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Did the DM Zone do anything to control the pythium? Did you have the res aerated? And, do you know what the temp was of the nutes?

Definitely would be good information for other growers using a small res to grow.

I think you're going to like how the Gigabud is going to perform. Make sure you top the clones once or twice and then veg them for a week or two before you put them into 12/12. Mine only stretched about 25%, so for my next grow (all G-bud) I will veg them until they are 8 inches tall and then flip them 12/12 and they should stretch to 12.

 

[jcool09]

Re: LED Recirc-DWC Tangerine Dream cabinet grow

Did the DM Zone do anything to control the pythium? Did you have the res aerated? And, do you know what the temp was of the nutes?

Definitely would be good information for other growers using a small res to grow.

I think you're going to like how the Gigabud is going to perform. Make sure you top the clones once or twice and then veg them for a week or two before you put them into 12/12. Mine only stretched about 25%, so for my next grow (all G-bud) I will veg them until they are 8 inches tall and then flip them 12/12 and they should stretch to 12.

Edit: I forgot to mention this DWC held only 1.5 gallons- it may appear larger in the pics.

Steve, the DM Zone was not able to control the pythium even at a 2ml/gal dose. The res was aerated but the 80 degree water temp was just too high. Bottom line is that I need to have some way to keep the res cool. Recirc would fix it, perhaps another external res for the veg cab in the future. First item on my veg cab wish list is a way to get some beefy roots on the clones before I bring them to the flower side.

On a related note I'm looking forward to your upcoming DIY cloner post- it may be just the solution I am looking for. I thought about getting a prefab setup for the GBud but I will be sure to check out your design first. I appreciate your attention to detail and the patience I know it requires.