Guerrilla Comes In From The Cold! - First Indoor Grow

[Onamatopeia]

Feral, nothing in this world prepared me for my first grow. Thirteen plants, all from bagseed, much of it the cheapest Mexican. And the fresh, organic sinsemilla that resulted blew me away! No degradation. No nutrient taste. No squishing into a brick and being left inside a truck tire in Texas for six months. Your fresh, well-grown, properly flushed weed is a better bet any day!

On the flip side, that grow and some trips to Mexico convinced me that their weed is awesome, just by the time is gets here it's practically ruined.

 

[ChefDGreen]

so true, undergrow. Bad weed is almost always just severely mishandled, either in the cure or in the packaging. This plant doesn't really produce anything shitty if you take proper care after nature has run it's course.

Out of curiousity what did those two 300w lights cost you? I just got a 700w (140x5w) Mars2 from marshydro, only cost me 230

 

[Onamatopeia]

Wow, I thought the Mars lights were super expensive! How are you liking it?

Each of my lights was about $115-$120. So very close to what you paid. Until yesterday, when I got my G8 LED all red bloom light. It is only red wavelengths, only for use during flowering as a supplement. That was close to $200 all by itself. Really, each new light I bought felt like a major escalation to my grow.

One reason I bought the red light is, honestly, this grow is going so well. If the grow sucked I wouldn't put any more money into it. The truth is that, unlike just one month ago, I now see a future where I easily easily can meet my own needs and maybe a few others with just this setup. In my head this grow, even with the extra expenses, should pay for this gear in the very first run. So I went all in!

 

[ChefDGreen]

Wow, I thought the Mars lights were super expensive! How are you liking it?

Each of my lights was about $115-$120. So very close to what you paid. Until yesterday, when I got my G8 LED all red bloom light. It is only red wavelengths, only for use during flowering as a supplement. That was close to $200 all by itself. Really, each new light I bought felt like a major escalation to my grow.


One reason I bought the red light is, honestly, this grow is going so well. If the grow sucked I wouldn't put any more money into it. The truth is that, unlike just one month ago, I now see a future where I easily easily can meet my own needs and maybe a few others with just this setup. In my head this grow, even with the extra expenses, should pay for this gear in the very first run. So I went all in!

Yeah, if you're confident you can produce a harvest proper equipment pays for itself fifty times over. I havent really gotten a great chance to use it, i got a it about a week before i found out my solo plant was a male. I chopped it down and stopped running the light. Hopefully i'll have a new journal here soon with the seeds i have coming.

 

[Onamatopeia]

Chef, it makes me nauseous just thinking about that male. All that work for... him.

It sounds stupid when I explain it, but I started planting 3 seeds to a pot for that reason. That way, you are almost guaranteed at least one female in the bucket!

The last couple mornings, I look in on the plants and every single top is super light green in the middle. A sign of fast growth but my LEDs made the picture unusable. I wanted to show it off!

Last night I actually removed my plants from the room for the first time. I picked out some interior veg. Surprised that many of the lower leaves are already going yellow. This always happens, but generally not til much later. Starvation of the leaves was accelerated I think by the thick growth above them, shadowing them severely.

Something noteworthy about this grow is the coarsening of many leaves. It always happens at the very top of the plant with the highest growth shoots. These leaves a couple weeks later are looking ragged, more prone to yellowing and a kind of brittleness. The second these turn yellow I am pulling them off because a bad leaf is a vector for disease.

Why is this happening? I honestly haven't bothered to read up on it because I think it is the lights.

If you could have too little light or too much, which would you choose? I choose too much! I am trying to maximize my light by keeping the plants as close as possible. So for most of this grow they are about 18 inches above the tops. The highest tops might be getting 12-14 inches away. Now I don't know but the ones that have been very closest to the light seem to be putting out the coarsened leaves. If a few leaves are suboptimal but the rest of my grow benefits significantly, I will let a couple leaves coarsen!

A couple plants in the same area, that is to say the very tops of the highest growth shoots, have a few white spots. I can't rub them off at all so I am pretty sure it is some sort of albino lack of pigment thing. The dots are very small.

Again, my thought is that it is worth the price if 99% of my grow benefits from the proximity.

Very interesting to examine the plants in better detail. The density has prevented me from seeing the soil and branching properly. They are not all with six perfect colas, most have more like 4. Shadowing has really limited many of the lower branches. Part of my packing 18 plants in there.

I think I ID'ed 3 females and two males. One male I pulled and one I just folded down until the flowers are a little more distinct. I hope in the next couple days the other males show! In the outdoors this time was so dangerous, because the males can go from nothing to full flowers very quickly. You could leave a plant for a week and come back to a terrible surprise of a fully formed male hitting on all your ladies! Shuddering at the memory.

Some kind of bug is in my grow. They are everywhere, like no-see-'ems. They don't seem to be eating the plants.

I guess I got the silica just in time!

 

[ChefDGreen]

I'd need pics but, theyre getting to the stage where theyre needing more nutrients.. Thats a great sign of a heavy yielder. What kind of nutes do have/have you fed them already? Id give them a little extra N

Also, i would either top your plants to allow those lower branches to get bigger.. Or trim down your upper leaves by cutting fan blades in half... NOT removing them that is

 

[Onamatopeia]

It's so funny because at this point several disparate factors are going into most decisions.

Nute wise they have been on 7-7-7 plant food and I just started with Dyna Gro Bloom and Pro Tekt.

The thing with the leaves is, it is happening at different times on each plant, and it there is no pattern except it always happens to the tops of the plants closest to the lights.

Yellowing of the leaves I am not worried about. It happens on every grow, but outside it doesn't happen until the second half of flower. I think the combo of being heavily shaded and some of them being the coarse leaves makes them more vulnerable.

The plants are growing so fast, putting out so many healthy branches and leaves, I am treating these isolated leaves as outliers.

Some notes on sexing the plants. I pulled three males today and folded one down. None have been definitively identified as female.

Here's something that might help new growers. I've been growing since high school, like 15 years. In that time, I think, every single time I thought a plant was a male, it was. In other words, every time I looked and thought I saw balls, they were balls. the ball shape is really distinct and identifiable when the plant's morphology is still emerging.

I tried using my mini microscope but it looks like it will be no use to me until it is time to check trichome color in two months. You really are only looking at two things. The shape of the flower, and the location. So far, if there is a visible flower at all, the shape is as apparent with the naked eye as with the scope. Plus that mini microscope has such a small field of view, and narrow depth of field, it was very tough to focus on the flower.

Here is something else I am not sure I have read anywhere. The male and female flowers are in two different places. The male flower is sort of in the crotch between the petiole, the growth shoot, and the stipule. Pistils of the female flower, please forgive me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure I am right, pull of of the stipule itself. So if you see anything by itself in that crotch it is a male. I will have to do some reading to confirm but that is my impression.


I have a magnifier with a light that is working better for flower id.

 

[Onamatopeia]

A note on lollypopping. I had never heard of the term or the concept until very recently. But today I am kicking myself for years and years of watching those long lower branches pop up during flowering and giving almost no buds. It's like a light bulb has gone on for me in that I can be much more aggressive managing the growth of my plants.

But I won't lollypop like a lot of people. It makes perfect sense to me to pinch off those lowest shoots. But a healthy fan leaf stays on there as long as it is healthy and not completely shading some bud site. Cutting fan leaves is uncool and unwise. The whole point of that leaf is to give the plant energy to do what it wants. During flowering, that leaf's purpose is to build you buds! So to cut it off is to weaken the plant and reduce the size of its engine.

At the same time, leaves far below a dense canopy may never develop into anything. So if it can't turn itself into a full leaf it is probably a distraction not an asset to the plant. There are some leaves on the bottom of my babies that seem like they will stay tiny. Those all got chopped.

Also I am going to leave some growth shoots for a cloning attempt. If I can set it up I want to get 2 clones from each plant. Once I know which flowers I like best, those clones will be the centerpiece of the next grow.

Every day when I look at the plants this week I see taller plants. I've moved the fan up twice and will again soon. I flatter myself that I am doing a good job but then remember it is just the stretch.

Understory of the plants is notably cleaner now. I don't think I took off too many leaves but am not sure.

 

[golfer420]

Great points, Undergrow and questions I've asked myself. I still have some really big fan leaves that I tuck back because I don't want to unnecessarily trim that large surface area. The ones that aren't covering anything remain.

My question is, at what point does the value of clipping small and tiny growth (to save resources), get over shadowed by the possible lack of growth or healing resources spent while the plant deals with the trimmed leaves and stems?

I'm a bit more keenly aware of this because my current grow is an auto flower and I don't have the luxury of the veg period to be extended. Good or bad (good for me personally) - after about 30 days the plant starts the flowering process. I'm concerned I may stress the plant with too much trimming of leaves. However, I can't let a potentially good bud site sit underneath a big fan leaf.

 

[Onamatopeia]

It is tough! My thought is, when in doubt don't do anything. Give it a day and recheck.

That's what I am doing with a couple likely males.

Worried! Some of my buckets have already had a male removed and the other two plants look male-ish. Two buckets have had two of three removed with no positive female. My only positive females are currently crowded by two unknown plants.

Wondering if I may have pulled my first ones too soon. I've never grown indoors, with LEDs. Maybe those first flower shapes, which definitely looked male but had not turned into actual balls yet- maybe I jumped the gun.

I don't know if I have ever ever had more males than females in a grow. It always seems to be slightly more females than males.

These stupid little bugs are looking entirely too at home on my plants. I see zero signs of damage so I am doing nothing.

Personally I fear any chemicals that would be necessary to kill pests on my plants. The few times I tried in the guerrilla world were ineffective and/or severely damaged my plants. Even neem oil. So if I can I am avoiding any chemicals whatsoever except for plant food!

They are still rapidly growing up. As soon as I know who the girls are the fun is gonna start. I can already see GREAT potential to shape the plants in such a way as to maximize my colas.

Also, I can see it would be very easy to put some books or blocks under selected buckets in order to even out the canopy height. But I think in a week or so I should be able to aggressive bend/stake these things to be very near the same height, and at the same time letting each plants lower branches have a chance to grow up the top shoots.

Unfortunately, I have to leave this weekend for a few days. Hoping things get sorted out by then but not sure how long they will take to declare gender. I think it is only two females definite at this point.

 

[Onamatopeia]

Worried! I can't ever remember a bucket of three that had all males. But it just happened. I have a totally empty bucket and many undeclared plants!

I remember too in past grows this panic. It goes like this. The males declare first. So the first three plants that declare are all males, or 8 of the first 10. And in the back of my mind I go "did I plant all male seeds? did I screw up the environment and turn them into males?" Silly, but it still happens.

But this empty bucket has me questioning things for the moment. I am anxious to get my canopy in order. It is a total mess right now.

 

[Groovy Bud]

Lovely canopy. I see you LST'ed them, way to go!

At first when I saw your seedlings, more than 1 per each pot, I was starting to think that it would get too overcrowded and overshading would be hapenning.
But seems like you have done this before (maybe not indoor) and you are truly making an outstanding job.

 

[Onamatopeia]

Thanks Groovy! I really need these babies to declare gender because they keep growing even though they are running out of room!

Only up to 3 confirmed females. I've pulled about 5 males. And there's probably 3 or 4 at least I suspect of being males.

Really worried that I might for the first time ever have more males than females. And really rethinking my early pulls of some plants. One female flower has emerged from a squat structure I would have thought was a male. I haven't pulled any plants at all in a couple days because I am tired of tossing males away that now I worry may have been female! So just to be sure I am waiting until those balls are right in my face before I eject them.

Nutrient wise I decided to go with Dyna Gro. So whatever I get will probably be their brand. So far I have the Pro Tekt and the Bloom. I figure if I don't have Neem oil Murphy's Law will come get me, so I have some Dyna Gro Neem oil too for bugs etc. Whatever they sell for veg I will get for the next cycle. My quart of bloom I think will get me through more than one grow but we'll see.

I have no experience at all with high end nutes. But the prices of some appall me. If you look at Miracle Grow plant food you will see all the many micro nutrients that the expensive stuff has. So how can it be 50 bucks for a couple small bottles of plant food? My experience tells me that 99% of the world's plants grow fine with no nutrients, and that there is no monopoly on N, P, or K. So no way was I getting the most gourmet plant food without proof.

And there is no definite proof. There sure aren't enough impartial reviews and comparison grows for the consumer to learn much. There is so much hype around these kind of products, which have dwelled in the world of myth more than fact. But Dyna Grow seems to have a reputation as a solid brand that didn't rip you off. So that's why I went with them.

My females I am amazed at! I really could have/ should have flipped the lights sooner. If I spread them out each one can cover a square foot or more I think. Two might get six colas and the other has only three or four. Really it would be perfect to grow one plant in each of these buckets, I think that the 5 gallons are a great size for my grow.

 

[Onamatopeia]

Finally pulled another male today. It was ballsy!

I have one totally empty bucket and one with just one undeclared plant. Much to my relief the undeclared plant is a female, giving me a chance to do some real training. The plant had three good colas and two minor ones, with training I think all 5 will do well. What do you guys think?

You can see bottom right that yesterday I bent it too aggressively. I was going to splint it but it held on just about the angle I wanted it, so it's just got a little kink.

The thing with this one-topping method is the two branches off the highest node will naturally dominate, and if anybody has to be trained down it's usually them. On a different female than this I was pulling apart the two top shoots too hard and split the whole plant! Didn't think to photograph it but it was a fun repair job. Just used a plant twisty and left it so the plant can widen.

My dehumidifier does almost nothing, takes maybe 3 oz water/ day out of the air. Oh well, it is better than nothing! And my humidity is consistently lower than outside air, so there's that.

 

[Onamatopeia]

So a couple females declared this morning. I found three females in the same bucket, so after a little thought decided to replant the biggest one into my empty bucket. This one had the best branching, while taking it out left the other two made a quite compatible canopy.

Then, there is now another bucket with two declared females and one undeclared plant. If this bucket ends up with three females I have a crazy plan! I am going to take one of them out of the garden altogether and plant it outside! Very curious if it reverses to veg state or continues to flower.

I see a lot of potential in growing plants and flowering them about now, then planting them outside to ripen in the hottest days of summer! Maybe in the future...

A couple more buckets got some training today. Can't wait til the males are all gone and I can make firm plans for the canopy. Right now I think there are 8 declared females and 3 undeclared eunuchs.

 

[FeralA9X]

Finally pulled another male today. It was ballsy!

You can see bottom right that yesterday I bent it too aggressively. I was going to splint it but it held on just about the angle I wanted it, so it's just got a little kink.

hehe i wouldnt worry too much about bending them too much, check the initial kink i put on my THC Bomb in my grow lol, they will survive just about anything

looking great though mate

 

[Onamatopeia]

I took your advice to heart, Feral!

Probably my tallest plant in the grow is in a bucket with one several inches shorter. So tonight I super cropped the shit out it! I just laid those two colas over sideways about an inch lower than the other plant. Should be an awesome canopy!

Something else I did, one of my very biggest females I just pulled from the garden!. Roots were chopped and everything. I put that little girl in another bucket and stuck it outside! So I am going to try to convert it into an outside plant and see if it still flowers! Would not be surprised if it just sat there frozen for a while. After all it is the summer solstice today! Longest day of the year. So NO help from Mother Nature keeping this thing in flower. But it may stay in flower, we'll see!

My canopy is so full right now I felt by pulling this plant maybe now all the rest will have room. Most of my buckets have buds spilling out beyond their diameter. I am starting to wonder how many more males will declare. I only see one or two that I think are males at this point. So the canopy needed thinning! Blown away by how my little bitty plants are so big so fast!

I may have screwed up but I think I am going to have a nice full canopy!

 

[Onamatopeia]

My supercrop this morning looks like it has already set in a good spot. Really, by making it go horizontal I realize that half of my present plants, super cropped in this manner, could fill my canopy. Next grow I am definitely using less plants!

The plant I put outside so far is looking okay, with no signs of stress. This morning I put it in full sunlight for a minute, then shade for 30, then in the light for 2 minutes, 3 minutes, with 30 minute breaks. Currently it is in dappled light. I hope that I can take it easy on her today and then plant her out tomorrow! That may be too quick, it may not handle the sun, we'll see!

My total now is eight declared females, two undeclared, and one now outside.

Five of my six buckets are now totally manageable. The sixth has two large, Sativa-dominant females with serious branching. They are crowded at the top of the canopy and all the way down to an inch above soil. If the plant that went outside does well I may transplant one of these outside as well. In the meantime, I lollipopped the interiors of the plants, leaving several clone possibilities for later. Also put four growth shoots into water, will try to clone them in a minute. The interior of my plant is much clearer, plus I took out about a dozen growth shoots that will only make popcorn!

Honestly, newbie growers that are topping, you will fill the canopy very quickly once your plants hit a certain size. I could have started flowering a full week earlier, maybe more, and still filled my canopy no problem.

 

[Onamatopeia]

I am figuring 10 weeks or 70 days to flower. I hope that is enough.

Honestly I am budgeting less time in part because I have read more than once that LED lights speed up flowering by a week or so. Otherwise my sativa divas might take forever!

Amazed at my too-full canopy. Very much hoping at least one of my undeclared plants is a male. Otherwise I may be doing another outdoor transplant.

Fortunately I was around all day today. My outdoor transplant at times wilted today, so I would put her in the shade. As soon as she perked up, I put her back in the sun. I think tomorrow she cannot have too much sun because she still isn't ready.

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but this grow on the whole has gone really great so far. Hoping I can avoid major disaster because these babies are looking fine!

 

[Onamatopeia]

Worried! No guarantees on ANYTHING!

Away for 2-3 days, back to see that after almost 3 weeks in flower my plants are still stretching! A couple seem to be stretching even more than a week ago!

My tent is only 60 inches tall. I flowered them when they were all less than a foot tall, I have super cropped my tallest, they all had been topped.

And STILL the stretch threatens to outgrow my tent.

I blamed the light. I have read that a plant too close to the light will grow fast and wispy. I don't see wispy, but it's almost 3 weeks in flower! When I came back some of them were less than 8 inches from the lights! Are these sativa divas just untamable? I have 7 more weeks at least. Time for extreme measures.

So, action:

I super cropped everything above about the 20 inch mark. Some plants I had to fold down like 6 colas. Now my plants are all wider. Again my space may be too small for this number of plants, and i am thinking of moving one or more outside.

Also got creative with the lights to get them up higher. Standard setup they are more than 18 inches below the top of the tent. Now they are more like 12 inches below. I see room to get them higher but it is kind of extreme. Now I have 20 or more inches of room between the plant tops and the lights. Honestly, they can tolerate very little additional stretch before I am in panic mode. Who am I kidding? I am already a little panicked!

OTOH, OMG supercropping is the sh*t! You can completely dictate where the plant grows and redirect them. So far at least they have recovered within hours. So I have been getting more aggressive with my babies.

One I super cropped today was a worry. It was the type that quickly formed a big hollow stem. Now where I bent it I can see into the stem through a gap. Will keep an eye on that one.