spring2012
Well-Known Member
makes me want to order more seeds again.
Horizontal Scrog Part 1-Grow 2-Jarhed's Unknown Clones
- Thread starter grogreen
- Start date
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- #102
Thanks green collar, nice of you to stop by and check out the girls. Ya it certainly does look like she's been topped, but they were only topped one time! the extreme LST Is what exposed lower branching and turned them into main cola bearing branches, I'm liking the results thus far....
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- #103
reps for the sleestack info if it lets me, saves me hunting round to find the info, i thought it was sativa due to the way the leaves are, they look so sharp and well defined and thinner than the indica heavy leaves, im growing one of mine as a 2ltr hempie so if its fem ill be cloning it and growing it in a bigger pot, im just doing some 2ltr dwc hempies now while my big plants finish, after my big plants have been harvested ill be doing a huge dwc scrog, well thats my plan, just depends on res temp etc etc but ill run test before starting, so for now im going with the 2ltr hempies, and any strain that grows well or produces real nice buds then ill grow the clones out into bigger plants, ive planted 4 fem seeds and the others are none fem, these are the sleestack cross skunk and the big bud#2 which was free from herbies for a long time but he changed the free seeds now, ill list the strains in my journal tomorrow of what i got growing as hempies
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- #105
Howdy all my grass growing people....just alittle update, so im now a little less than 3 weeks into flower, another 4-5 weeks away from completion, girls are really trich'ing up, buds are getting beefy and life is good...photos:
SPACE QUEEN
JOCK HORROR
VEG TENT
6 X space queen/jock horror clones, 2 X Royal Queen Critical, 2 X Royal Queen Power Flower
SEEDLING MAT
10 X sleestack X skunk
got a lot of good things going here, thinking about throwing my clones in the flower room to make room for the sleestack seedlings, curious to know of anyone who has went 12/12 from rooted clone what kind of yield they got? I want to have a decent yield and I can wait for the clones to get bigger, but if i can get a decent yield from throwing them into flower id like to bang these strains off and move on to my next ones. Im so indecisive
Also it has now been about 5 days since my last defoliatioin and the plant pretty much gave up growing leaves and now just grows its buds, you can clearly see i have bud developing down in the middle branches that are usually shaded and produce next to nothing, i also took your advice there DP and I stuck a wooden dowling pole under one side of my plant pot so light can penetrate the sides of the buds as well, it seems to be working quite well, great idea!
SPACE QUEEN
JOCK HORROR
VEG TENT
6 X space queen/jock horror clones, 2 X Royal Queen Critical, 2 X Royal Queen Power Flower
SEEDLING MAT
10 X sleestack X skunk
got a lot of good things going here, thinking about throwing my clones in the flower room to make room for the sleestack seedlings, curious to know of anyone who has went 12/12 from rooted clone what kind of yield they got? I want to have a decent yield and I can wait for the clones to get bigger, but if i can get a decent yield from throwing them into flower id like to bang these strains off and move on to my next ones. Im so indecisive
Also it has now been about 5 days since my last defoliatioin and the plant pretty much gave up growing leaves and now just grows its buds, you can clearly see i have bud developing down in the middle branches that are usually shaded and produce next to nothing, i also took your advice there DP and I stuck a wooden dowling pole under one side of my plant pot so light can penetrate the sides of the buds as well, it seems to be working quite well, great idea!
wow those buds are getting big and I bet they are getting sticky. Your clones are very nice also. The sog that i am doing the clones were around 5 weeks old. so they were a little bigger. BCBud did that, clone them and put them into flower. Not sure what kind of yield he got and he is shut down.
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- #107
what do you think you will get off one of your clones? harvest wise. If its less than an oz im just going to grow these things out some so i can yield more, im in no hurry im just impatient
The way it is looking it probably will be in the 20 to 30 gram area. maybe a little less but there are 16 plants so it still will be a good harvest
Green Knight
Well-Known Member
Your room looks fantastic gg now all the panda film's up, and the plants are doing really well mate - with the defoliation they're really filling out through the whole plant.
You've got a hell of a lot of space to flower in haven't you. You could get a really nice perpetual grow going so you've got plants continually ready to harvest.
You've got a hell of a lot of space to flower in haven't you. You could get a really nice perpetual grow going so you've got plants continually ready to harvest.
- Thread starter
- #110
yea im starting my perpetual now, hence why i have 22 plants going, my only dilemma is i only have 39 inches head room, which really limits how much light can be utilized in my space, rather than getting more HID's i think i may deck the rest of the room out in LEDs that would make the most sense and save me a lot on hydro, but we will play it by ear, yes that panda film makes a huge difference for sure. thanks for coming by
He makes his ladies work as strippers when they are in flowering. 
Gets good results though.
Gets good results though.
CoryDavid88
New Member
when i first started reading your your journal about going horizontal it really got me thinking. you said youhave a t5. well i got 2 t5's 4 bulbs but only 2 foot long. Why couldn't you put your plants on the sides like you did and put a T5 at eac end of them then a 400 above. Im no expert by any means but to ,e it would keep them grownig in both angles. just some food for thought. i got my T5 at a hydro shop locally for 89 bucks i think. it could have a tatally wrong effect it was just something i was thinking of doing after reading your journal
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- #114
I started my defoliation early in veg, you almost have to train your plants as they grow to be able to tolerate serious defoliations, if you havent been doing it throughout the grow I would definitely suggest to go easy with it.
Just remove leaves that are blocking good bud bearing colas, your plants have huge leaves! so this could be tricky. Tuck what you can, but any that are untuckable snip them off about halfway up the stem, if you cut too close to the main stem you could introduce an infection or disease, the little nub left from the leaf will fall off within a couple weeks. I would say to be safe, only do it on one plant first and see how she takes it (im sure she will handle it just fine) and then do the other plant after you've seen the results from the first plant.
The theory behind what im trying to do with my grow is, show that through constant defoliation throughout the entire plants life allows the buds to provide the energy of the plant not the leaves. This is a controversial technique, but i've always been a think outside the box kind of guy.
So to answer your question, yes i defoliate during flowering quite a bit, the goal is to not let any leaf get older than 2 weeks, after that time they've served their purpose and are wasting energy that the buds could be using. My girls handle it so well because I have trained them too by pulling leaves throughout every phase of growth. This method is not for the faint of heart, lol to look at my plants afterwards I think "holy hell, what have I done!" But after a fews days I see them bounce back, vigorous and strong.
Do i think you should give it a go? Yes but cautiously if you havent been pulling leaves prior to this, only take ones that you need to ie.- bud blockers
As for hurting your final product, plucking a few leaves will have no affect on your grow, not plucking could end up in main colas not growing to their full potential due to light being blocked off by giant fan leaves. It's your call, but i can assure you of a few things that by taking a few of her leaves will not: 1. cause your plant to hermie 2. stunt growth for longer than a day or two if at all 3. YOUR PLANT WILL NOT DIE lol
In my opinion, the benefits far outweigh the cons.
Good luck finding someone that agrees with me though, but i've turned a few onto the idea and they have experimented with it a bit, I know DonP tried it a bit, beemer has plucked a few, same with green knight all with great results. That being said im going to copy and paste info from the site where i did most of my defoliation research (compliments of 420 mag member Green Knight for referring it):
(Experienced Growers Only) Controversial Defoliation Increases Marijuana Yields
by Keef Treez "The Defoliator"
Defoliation is an extreme marijuana growth technique. It's not to be done lightly.
In fact, the topic of defoliation is one of the most controversial subjects in the marijuana growing field. People on both sides defend their position vehemently.
I'm on the side that believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation.
Opponents often have arguments like, "PLANTS NEED THOSE LEAVES! If they didn't, they wouldn't be there."
Or my all-time favorite, "I have a friend who used to grow, and he insists that will hurt the plant."
Yet the saddest part of all is how so few people are willing to look at the evidence.
In some ways, I almost would prefer the rest of the growing world keep up their ill-advised lollipopping, removing growing tips, and other low-yield techniques. The defoliation technique has been loudly condemned by "experienced" growers for decades. Nevertheless, I am determined to educate other growers about defoliating and let them see the results for themselves.
So let me start by giving you some picture proof that defoliation works (make sure you scroll down to see all of them!).
You see, I've been defoliating intensively for 30 years. I am now training plants to be 32" tall and 32" round and yielding 250-400 grams under 400 watt lamp.
How-To Tutorial: The Controversial Technique of Defoliation
Despite all the evidence (I've posted hundreds of pictures and shown dozens of growers in person), there is still somehow so much skepticism about defoliation techniques. Growers, especially new growers, often just say variations of, "It's common sense, how could removing any part of the plant cause you to get higher yields?"
I recently attended an advanced seminar with a prominent fellow grower and got roundly booed when attempting to describe the defoliation technique, even with pictures showing dramatic benefits.
Unlike many other growers, I believe what's most important is studying how the plant actually grows, instead of assuming she grows how we think she should grow. Real experimentation and unbiased observers are the only way growers are going to learn how to get the best yields for the amount of time, money, and effort.
And it's true that some types of defoliation are brutal to the plants (such as when misguided growers removing all the leaves off extremely young marijuana plants), but other types of defoliation are actually hugely beneficial to increasing yields (I'll be showing you exactly what do do shortly).
And defoliation is beneficial for more than just marijuana, it also has been proven to increase yields for certain other types of crops. For example, it's well-known that cowpeas experience significant increases in yields when up to 50% of their leaves are defoliated during their flowering stage... (source)
And it's true that the real beauty of defoliation is difficult to translate in pictures and verbally.
But I will do my best to give you everything you need to start producing your own huge yields with marijuana defoliation.
But First, Let Me Show You About Increased Bud Production With Defoliation During the Flowering Stage
Before plucking
Immediately After Plucking
Just 4 days later, look at the incredible bud growth
Only 4 Days After That (after another defoliation session)
How Early Do You Start Defoliating?
I first started defoliating in desperation after many years of SOG, which I feel has proven to be too much work for inconsistent yields. After much experimentation, I've found my yields have been more consistent when training a single plant to use this space instead of 4 or 9 or 25 SOG clones.
Never mind the fact that in many states, patients are limited to just a handful of plants, removing SoG as a viable option.
Most growers who are curious about this do not want to perform defoliation on small plants. They consider the practice in veg to be too radical. And I 100% agree that totally stripping your seedlings of all leaves will be devastating to their growth.
And the honest truth is that defoliation isn't for everyone. Beginners are often already dealing with the drawbacks to their choice of method or media, and defoliation can be disastrous to any but the healthiest of plants.
Because of this, I sometimes hesitate to throw defoliation into the mix of challenges for beginning growers and I strongly advise any growers to experiment with defoliation (or with any extreme growth control method) in the vegetative stage only where there is nothing at stake.
That being said, I believe the only reason you should allow a marijuana plant to leaf out completely is in an outdoor situation where you want as large a plant as possible. In that case you can save deleafing for mid to late summer after full-stretch and branching.
The way I practice this method (growing indoors) leaves never get a chance to age. No leaves are allowed more than about two weeks existence. I start at the top in order to remove the shading. Removing lower leaf contributes nothing to the strategy of exposing usually shaded out mid and lower growth to premium light. I still remove older shabby leaves to keep it all tidy.
And this is where defoliation gets controversial. Many growers feel that controlling their plant in any way during the vegetative stage will significantly reduce yields. And I understand how it can seem that way, especially to new growers, before you've gone through the entire life cycle of the marijuana plant a few times.
Experiments show, again and again, that large plants with intensively prepared structure during extended Veg cycle yield far more than untrained, smaller, force-flowered inpiduals.
The truth is, that with marijuana, the real 'secret sauce' to getting enormous yields is when you've perfectly prepared your plants for the flowering stage. As any grower knows, once you're deep into flowering, there isn't a whole lot you can do about huge, out-of-control plants except hold on, pray for the best, and do better next time.
I DO NOT lollipop and advice strongly against it. I use defoliation to skillfully and artfully prepare plants during the vegetative stage, so that lollipopping becomes completely unnecessary. I am on a mission to refocus growing technique to never remove ANY productive growth. I believe only leaves should be removed.
Ultimately, the defoliation technique is a huge tool in the grower's toolbox that allows you to dominate the Vegetative stage. Then it can be used in the Flowering stage to maximize yields.
Defoliation is the Big Secret to High-Yield, Compact Marijuana Plants
My style involves intensive defoliation along with the twist and train method (a version of supercropping) using a basic net for support.
I only top once, if at all, at the 5th or 6th node(approximately) depending on the height and structure of a given clone. I also deleaf them at this time. The only plants that get more topping than that are because they had clones taken from them. I don't usually keep dedicated mothers, instead, I just clone the clones and cycle everything through.
Here is a close-up of a veg clone getting it's second stripping.
Before
After
To get the best results, you should start defoliation in the vegetative stage. Leaf removal in bud is beneficial after stretch but most important to yields is management and the creation of a more compact plant with more budding sites in a given size.
Stripping and bending takes practice but you must do it to get practice. By starting in veg you risk no bud. Veg plants are replaceable so experiment and be ready to devote a little more time to prepare them.
I'd describe my stripping as "aggressive." Once your plant is trained to deal with defoliation, it's hard to go wrong. Plus, after years of experience, I've become very familiar with how these plants grow and always know what my outcome will be.
But defoliation doesn't end in the vegetative stage. I also continue to pull the fan leaves off of my flowering plants to expose the buds.
As far as when and how often, I don't get too scientific about it.
Usually if things look leafy, meaning that you see more leaf than budsites when viewing the crop, it may be time for another deleafing. It usually takes a week to 10 days for a plant to releaf to the point that there are 2-4 new leaves that have flattened and greened enough to deleaf again.
This repeated releafing process allows that lower growth to benefit from the maturing of the immediate leaf mass.
Leaf removal stimulates lower and mid bud growth by exposing those normally shaded out areas to premium light. Of course those new to the technique should start slow, but if you start too slow you won't remove enough leaf to see the best result.
You basically want to prevent any 'shade' from happening.
Here's an example of how I deleaf a girl who is 2 weeks into 12-12 (flowering)
Before
After
Notice how, you can now see light all the way through the plant. This is a good thing for light, as opposed to seeing nothing but leaves in the before pic.
Wait, did you say you wanted to see what kind of buds I get at the BOTTOM of the plant?
You get extensive bottom growth on defoliated plants
This is on the morning of harvest. While some are obsessed with top growth I like well developed bottoms. Tops are a given. If bottoms are this well developed the tops are certainly getting their share of light. Some guys like tops, some like bottoms. I like my girls to be equally well developed.
Ready to Get Started?
You can start easy and try to save leaves but what happens when you see the results like all the mid growth exploding with the new exposure. It would serve logic that if you remove a little and there is good results than remove more and on and on until you get comfortable with stripping down these girls.
I recommend you start deleafing as soon as your plants start looking 'bushy' at all. Start with removing the fans from all the branches and watch the results. Then remove progressively more. Don't remove any branches or sites if you want to commit to this method.
The idea is shade removal, NOT budsite removal. Allow them to releaf for a week or so and remove again when they look leafy.
This girl is 32"sq. and under 30" tall. She was thoroughly plucked continuously through her 11 week flowering cycle as well as during veg. No shortage of branches or buds, all of them chunky and exposed. I ended up harvesting 12 ounces off her. Marijuana plants do not get like this on their own. Stripping in veg and throughout bud is the only way to get results like this.
Answer to the 3 Most Common Questions About Marijuana Defoliation
1.) Which Leaves Can Be Plucked?
All of them.
That was the short answer.
I remove everything that is easily pinched off with the thumbnail and forefinger. I keep a little bit of a cutting tool for a thumbnail specifically for that purpose.
I don't try to get in super close to the buds once they get sticky unless it is just intolerably crowded. Any leaf that is attached by enough of a peristem to be plucked easily is fair game.
Bud leaves are attached deeper in the bud cluster and are difficult to remove by hand. I do not yank or pull down on the leaf. I snip it off with the thumbnail. Don't sweat the stubs that are left, they dry out and fall off. Best not to try to cut so close to the plant, especially in mold prone climates.
2.) Can Defoliation Be Used with Any Growing Medium?
Yes. Medium is not a factor. Go with what you like.
Defoliation works great for marijuana grown in soil, coco coir, perlite, vermiculite, DWC, ------------, and any other growing medium that marijuana grows in.
3.) I've Never Defoliated and Now I'm Several Weeks into Flowering with Tall, BUSHY Out-of-Control Plants... Can I Still Start Defoliating?
If you've never defoliated before, go conservative to start, even if your plants look healthy.
Do it moderately at first and a little more daily. Pluck fan leaves to prevent branches from growing taller. During the flowering stage, you'll be able to see the increase in bud production.
So there you have it, a basic introduction to defoliation for huge yields. It's about time defoliation went mainstream!
- Thread starter
- #115
interesting idea, i'd never really thought of that as this grow was strictly experimental, thanks for the insight, + reps, i think it would actually work great, you should try it!
- Thread starter
- #116
He makes his ladies work as strippers when they are in flowering.
I'd like to think they are my hoes rather than strippers, and I am their pimp. I put them out there for all to see but unless they show me the money they any gettin none of these goodies 
ajagunle
New Member
Tremendous explanation of defoliating!!
Reps to you (on credit sadly)
Reps to you (on credit sadly)
I agree with you 100%.I find with scrog growing you dont really have a choice but to defoliate otherwise theres nothing but fluff under the main colas. I'd give you reps for that explanation if I could bro
Dam grogreen that took awhile. Nice write up and I will be studying it. Reps at you
spring2012
Well-Known Member
My eyes are burning! Good read on the defoil!!
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