My Introduction To DWC Hydroponics
- Thread starter Maritimer
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- #62
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
Hi West Hippie,Here’s what found this morning for the nutrients. You’ve got this !
I just a while ago printed it up and took it downstairs.
Thanks again.
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- #63
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
I have two ppm tools and cannot identify 500 or 700 scale. PmoYoKo has never heard of it when I questioned what scale their meter was made for. I have ordered another tool but cannot find readily what scale it is calibrated for. WTH else is screwy? Anybody else have these silly complications?
I also have the calibration solution on hand . None have ever landed on the right numbers, but within 100 ppm . I do just what you did and order a new one which I have three at the moment and there close in number wise . I have my favorite ph pen but no favorite tds/ppm pen .
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- #65
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
What are the different conductivity scales? What do they mean?
EC, CF, ppm500, ppm700, TDS... What's the difference?
EC and CF are measures of electrically charged nutrient ions in a solution. Pure water will not conduct electricity. Water usually conducts electricity because it is full of impurities, in our case, electrically charged nutrient ions. The two black dots on the end of Bluelab conductivity probes are called electrodes. When these are placed in a solution, an electrical current passes from one electrode, through the water to the other electrode and counts the number of electrically charged ions present. The reading is then presented as an Electrical Conductivity (EC) reading or Conductivity Factor (CF) reading.
PPM measures parts per million. Known as dimensionless quantities, they are pure numbers with no associated units of measurement. A mass concentration of 2mg/kg - 2 parts per million - 2ppm - 2 x 10-6.
There are many different scales used for different industries around the world and for many different reasons! Did you even know there are more than two scales? Widely used ppm scales in hydroponics are the ppm500 scale, ppm650 scale and the ppm700 scale.
What's the difference between ppm500 and ppm700 scale?
The ppm 700 scale is based on measuring the KCl or potassium chloride content of a solution.
The ppm 500 is based on measuring the NaCl or sodium chloride content of a solution.
The ppm 500 scale is also referred to as TDS - total dissolved solids.
It is worth noting that while this are what each scale is based on, in reality these scales do not measure only the KCl content or NaCl content of the solution, but rather the overall conductivity of all electrically charged ions in the solution, this reading is then converted to give you a ppm500 or ppm700 representation.
The true ppm of a solution can only be determined by a chemical analysis, ppm cannot be measured by an EC meter. They are present on Bluelab products as a conversion guide only.
Bluelab meters will measure the EC of the solution, and then convert this to a ppm reading if the desired ppm scale is selected on the Bluelab device. The conversion from EC to ppm is as follows:
ppm500 = EC x 500
ppm700 = EC x 700
Some examples of how this works, using a conductivity reading of 2.4EC:
ppm500 scale: 2.4EC x 500 = 1200ppm [500 scale]
(or 1200ppm / 500 = 2.4EC)
ppm700 scale: 2.4EC x 700 = 1680ppm [700 scale]
(or 1680ppm / 700 = 2.4EC)
If you are reading from a book that says you should grow your crop at 1100ppm - how do you know which scale the writer is referring to? It is very important to match the scale on your meter to the scale being referred to in the book. Is the scale on your ppm meter right for the job? If the book was written in the USA, it could be the 650 or 500 scale. If the book is written in the UK, it could be the 700 scale. If it was written in Australia, well it could be any of the 3!
Because of the complications of the ppm scale(s), we highly recommend the use of EC, the international scale for conductivity.
If you must grow using ppm, you will need to know the following;
What ppm scale is the book or feeding schedule referring to? Match your meter to this!
What ppm scale is your meter using? Ensure it matches the feeding schedule or book being followed.
What ppm scale is the nutrient formula referring to? Match your meter to this!
Which ppm scale should you use? Which ever matches the rest of your system.
EC, CF, ppm500, ppm700, TDS... What's the difference?
EC and CF are measures of electrically charged nutrient ions in a solution. Pure water will not conduct electricity. Water usually conducts electricity because it is full of impurities, in our case, electrically charged nutrient ions. The two black dots on the end of Bluelab conductivity probes are called electrodes. When these are placed in a solution, an electrical current passes from one electrode, through the water to the other electrode and counts the number of electrically charged ions present. The reading is then presented as an Electrical Conductivity (EC) reading or Conductivity Factor (CF) reading.
PPM measures parts per million. Known as dimensionless quantities, they are pure numbers with no associated units of measurement. A mass concentration of 2mg/kg - 2 parts per million - 2ppm - 2 x 10-6.
There are many different scales used for different industries around the world and for many different reasons! Did you even know there are more than two scales? Widely used ppm scales in hydroponics are the ppm500 scale, ppm650 scale and the ppm700 scale.
What's the difference between ppm500 and ppm700 scale?
The ppm 700 scale is based on measuring the KCl or potassium chloride content of a solution.
The ppm 500 is based on measuring the NaCl or sodium chloride content of a solution.
The ppm 500 scale is also referred to as TDS - total dissolved solids.
It is worth noting that while this are what each scale is based on, in reality these scales do not measure only the KCl content or NaCl content of the solution, but rather the overall conductivity of all electrically charged ions in the solution, this reading is then converted to give you a ppm500 or ppm700 representation.
The true ppm of a solution can only be determined by a chemical analysis, ppm cannot be measured by an EC meter. They are present on Bluelab products as a conversion guide only.
Bluelab meters will measure the EC of the solution, and then convert this to a ppm reading if the desired ppm scale is selected on the Bluelab device. The conversion from EC to ppm is as follows:
ppm500 = EC x 500
ppm700 = EC x 700
Some examples of how this works, using a conductivity reading of 2.4EC:
ppm500 scale: 2.4EC x 500 = 1200ppm [500 scale]
(or 1200ppm / 500 = 2.4EC)
ppm700 scale: 2.4EC x 700 = 1680ppm [700 scale]
(or 1680ppm / 700 = 2.4EC)
If you are reading from a book that says you should grow your crop at 1100ppm - how do you know which scale the writer is referring to? It is very important to match the scale on your meter to the scale being referred to in the book. Is the scale on your ppm meter right for the job? If the book was written in the USA, it could be the 650 or 500 scale. If the book is written in the UK, it could be the 700 scale. If it was written in Australia, well it could be any of the 3!
Because of the complications of the ppm scale(s), we highly recommend the use of EC, the international scale for conductivity.
If you must grow using ppm, you will need to know the following;
What ppm scale is the book or feeding schedule referring to? Match your meter to this!
What ppm scale is your meter using? Ensure it matches the feeding schedule or book being followed.
What ppm scale is the nutrient formula referring to? Match your meter to this!
Which ppm scale should you use? Which ever matches the rest of your system.
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- #66
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
I need a bong hit. Dang. Maybe a few hits. 
Wow 1100 ppm would be advanced Nutrients. I ran it for three years . I wished I could hit a bong or joint , copd pneumonia comes quickly after a few hits . I’m going to make rosin and put into capsules in @Grandpa Tokin rosin thread later , got to clean my grow room giant ants dead everywhere from the safers de .I need a bong hit. Dang. Maybe a few hits.
Hey Maritimer
Sorry to see that your having some troubles.
I dislike the added complexity of three part nutrient lines (just a personal preference).
I have seen a few others with problems selecting the correct scale for their TDS pens. We will get this hiccup sorted
Who is the manufacturer of the TDS pen that you have?
Edit- I see you added that Already and I missed it. PmoYoKo is the manufacturer? Is yours the PH and TDS combo meter? I'm not seeing a lot of materials for them to help you
My personal preference has been HM. Why? I've had the same one since my first grow, and it's been dropped, frozen, submerged and still reads perfectly. Maybe I got lucky lol.
Here is the good news. Even if, you don't have the correct scale in use, the data you are collecting still has value, and is very useful. I've helped two growers previously who couldn't get their meters in the correct scale. It's something to work on, but nothing to loose sleep over.
The most important part for the TDS values is consistent readings. Can you take a picture of the meter, showing the reading?
Sorry to see that your having some troubles.
I dislike the added complexity of three part nutrient lines (just a personal preference).
I have seen a few others with problems selecting the correct scale for their TDS pens. We will get this hiccup sorted
Who is the manufacturer of the TDS pen that you have?
Edit- I see you added that Already and I missed it. PmoYoKo is the manufacturer? Is yours the PH and TDS combo meter? I'm not seeing a lot of materials for them to help you
My personal preference has been HM. Why? I've had the same one since my first grow, and it's been dropped, frozen, submerged and still reads perfectly. Maybe I got lucky lol.
Here is the good news. Even if, you don't have the correct scale in use, the data you are collecting still has value, and is very useful. I've helped two growers previously who couldn't get their meters in the correct scale. It's something to work on, but nothing to loose sleep over.
The most important part for the TDS values is consistent readings. Can you take a picture of the meter, showing the reading?
Most of the cheap China meters on the Zon are .500 scale. Not dissing cheap Chinese meters on the Zon by any means as that's what I have.
Try this
The chart above is in the 500 scale, it has both EC and ppm. Your meter should as well.
If you take the EC, add two zeros and divide by two it is a 500 scale. Otherwise it is a 700 scale.
Most charts are in EC and 500 ppm settings. The ppm shows finer data.
Measure your res with both the EC setting and the ppm setting to determine your meters parameters.
RELAX, if it was super critical, EC would not be accurate enough and a lot of growers use EC.
The chart above is in the 500 scale, it has both EC and ppm. Your meter should as well.
If you take the EC, add two zeros and divide by two it is a 500 scale. Otherwise it is a 700 scale.
Most charts are in EC and 500 ppm settings. The ppm shows finer data.
Measure your res with both the EC setting and the ppm setting to determine your meters parameters.
RELAX, if it was super critical, EC would not be accurate enough and a lot of growers use EC.
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- #71
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
Ahoy me brother,
you have never pointed my ship aground past cruises.
means moren to me, as I trust what ye says.
.500 they be
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- #72
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
Well, I went downstairs and built a gallon of distilled water into a 2nd week of flower gh chart solution, plus added my amendments and kept track as I went along. Took a while, and I am sure you all probably have done it yourself.
Sorry, this is so boring now, but I need/want to get it down correctly.
Distilled Water alone ppm 1 P/H 7.57
add GH Silica ppm 12 p/h 9.8 rising
add @farside05
4 ml/galCal Mag ppm 109 p/h 9.4 lowering
add micro @ 5.3 ml / gal ppm 300 p/h 8.86 lowering
add grow @ 4.6 ml/gal ppm 388 p/h 7.51 lowering
add bloom @ 6.0 ml/gal ppm 475 p/h 6.02 lowering
add Hydroguard @ 2 ml/gal ppm 476 p/h 6.13 modestly raising
watch this
add Rapid Start @ 5 ml/gal ppm 1030 p/h 5.69 lowering
add Koolbloom @ 2.5 ml/gal ppm 1090 p/h 5.98 modestly raising
So when I added the rapid start is what jacked me up?
This is all the amendments not counting the enzymes from raw I (dont want to waste).
@Rexer @West Hippie can you check my numbers (on the amounts above) I should be feeding, when you have a minute.
Sorry, this is so boring now, but I need/want to get it down correctly.
Distilled Water alone ppm 1 P/H 7.57
add GH Silica ppm 12 p/h 9.8 rising
add @farside05
4 ml/galCal Mag ppm 109 p/h 9.4 lowering
add micro @ 5.3 ml / gal ppm 300 p/h 8.86 lowering
add grow @ 4.6 ml/gal ppm 388 p/h 7.51 lowering
add bloom @ 6.0 ml/gal ppm 475 p/h 6.02 lowering
add Hydroguard @ 2 ml/gal ppm 476 p/h 6.13 modestly raising
watch this
add Rapid Start @ 5 ml/gal ppm 1030 p/h 5.69 lowering
add Koolbloom @ 2.5 ml/gal ppm 1090 p/h 5.98 modestly raising
So when I added the rapid start is what jacked me up?
This is all the amendments not counting the enzymes from raw I (dont want to waste).
@Rexer @West Hippie can you check my numbers (on the amounts above) I should be feeding, when you have a minute.
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- #73
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
I bet the solution I watered down yesterday is pretty worthless. Should I make a fresh batch for both buckets?
learning overloads last two days
learning overloads last two days
Didn’t know rapid root would be that high since I hadn’t used it before. You should be just fine . You have @farside05 he can tell you everything you have in that bucket. Much better than 1400 ppm .Well, I went downstairs and built a gallon of distilled water into a 2nd week of flower gh chart solution, plus added my amendments and kept track as I went along. Took a while, and I am sure you all probably have done it yourself.
Sorry, this is so boring now, but I need/want to get it down correctly.
Distilled Water alone ppm 1 P/H 7.57
add GH Silica ppm 12 p/h 9.8 rising
add @farside05
4 ml/galCal Mag ppm 109 p/h 9.4 lowering
add micro @ 5.3 ml / gal ppm 300 p/h 8.86 lowering
add grow @ 4.6 ml/gal ppm 388 p/h 7.51 lowering
add bloom @ 6.0 ml/gal ppm 475 p/h 6.02 lowering
add Hydroguard @ 2 ml/gal ppm 476 p/h 6.13 modestly raising
watch this
add Rapid Start @ 5 ml/gal ppm 1030 p/h 5.69 lowering
add Koolbloom @ 2.5 ml/gal ppm 1090 p/h 5.98 modestly raising
So when I added the rapid start is what jacked me up?
This is all the amendments not counting the enzymes from raw I (dont want to waste).
@Rexer @West Hippie can you check my numbers (on the amounts above) I should be feeding, when you have a minute.
- Thread starter
- #75
Maritimer
Well-Known Member
I thought it was you who told me they see root development each day using the stuff? Sorry. I have known @farside05 for a few short years, and he has saved me hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I make the Cal/Mag from powder he set us up with, and my peat based faux Pro-Mix HP is from his recipe. He told me changes were fun and he was always changing, and back then I just wanted some success so he kinda just went a different path. Now that I am happy enough to try changes, I am saddened by disappointments they bring an unprepared novice as myself. I don't like to bother folks with questions and sure wasn't trying to annoy you. I need all the help I can get.
Plus, I am a West Hippie @ heart.
If I can help I try but there’s a lot better at the hydro then myself. I’m stuck on the nutrients @InTheShed was using and that all of these guys here are dialed in on them also .I thought it was you who told me they see root development each day using the stuff? Sorry. I have known @farside05 for a few short years, and he has saved me hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I make the Cal/Mag from powder he set us up with, and my peat based faux Pro-Mix HP is from his recipe. He told me changes were fun and he was always changing, and back then I just wanted some success so he kinda just went a different path. Now that I am happy enough to try changes, I am saddened by disappointments they bring an unprepared novice as myself. I don't like to bother folks with questions and sure wasn't trying to annoy you. I need all the help I can get.
Plus, I am a West Hippie @ heart.
You know we are here to learn from each other and enjoy passing what we learned as you have already contributed beyond anything I’ve done here .
Once a hippie always a hippie just my hair is thinner and shorter. Like Willie I do wear a cowboy hat , all part of our neck of the woods.
THIS POST might be of particular interest to you @Maritimer You can cut your Cal-Mag costs in half again. Make your own Farside Nutrients Cal-Mag+™ aka FN Cal-Mag.
Hey Maritimer,
I wish I could help you with the Trio, but can't. Not won't, just can't...I've never used it as intended (my first grow I bought some and did a "Lucas Method " grow).
Like West, I found a simpler to use nutrient that I've grown comfortable with (FloraNova). I was never comfortable with the Trio (which you have).
What I can say, is that everything looks ok at a glance. As long as you've followed the manufacturers ratios you should be just fine.
ive used Rapidstart before, that too was in my first grow. So...it's been a few years since I've touched it.
If you find yourself dumping lots down the drain- you can take away some of your supplements this grow, to get more comfortable with hydro. You will still get a great yield and harvest- not quite as great, but more than satisfying.
I wish I could help you with the Trio, but can't. Not won't, just can't...I've never used it as intended (my first grow I bought some and did a "Lucas Method " grow).
Like West, I found a simpler to use nutrient that I've grown comfortable with (FloraNova). I was never comfortable with the Trio (which you have).
What I can say, is that everything looks ok at a glance. As long as you've followed the manufacturers ratios you should be just fine.
ive used Rapidstart before, that too was in my first grow. So...it's been a few years since I've touched it.
If you find yourself dumping lots down the drain- you can take away some of your supplements this grow, to get more comfortable with hydro. You will still get a great yield and harvest- not quite as great, but more than satisfying.
- Thread starter
- #79
No worries brother!
I just don't want you to be put off by the current difficulties. There are ways to cut down those difficulties, and I know you have at least one of those ways planned out for the future.
But flop? Bah, no way amigo! You seriously underestimate yourself- and the crew here that will see you through it.
I'll be putting my stirponic system together very very soon, I'm getting the itch to start my next grow.
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