Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

[sfhaze]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I know.

It goes against all my instincts to place a light that is claimed to be powerful enough to produce nice buds, so close to little baby seedlings.

But, this isn't about my instincts or how I use to do things.

On the other hand, ima go check the babies .

I've gone really close with the HSS lights with clones and never had any burning. The lights have so little white light and added heat it seems to be just fine. At about 6 inches they become very compact, it doesn't seem right to me, but some people seem to like those super compact plants. For now, I would just see how it's going and maybe make some adjustments.

During flowering, it really helps to get close - almost touching is great.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wowz. Incredible detail. Terriffic job. omg setting sun! seriously bro, i just caught up from the last couple days, and ur phenomenal. no question goes unanswered!

you're rockin as grow miestro!

thank you DroJo! I hope this grow and journal are helpful to the community.

your positive feedback and encouragement is what helps keep me going .

I've gone really close with the HSS lights with clones and never had any burning. The lights have so little white light and added heat it seems to be just fine. At about 6 inches they become very compact, it doesn't seem right to me, but some people seem to like those super compact plants. For now, I would just see how it's going and maybe make some adjustments.

During flowering, it really helps to get close - almost touching is great.

Thank you for that info bro, very helpful.

All of the seedlings are doing OK at this point with the panels at the recommended distances, so it's steady as she goes for now.

Do you think the compact plants from having the lights down low have less yield?

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

5 DAYS VEG

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I watered tonight with one gallon of plain RO water per tent. The pots felt light and soil was dry at least 3" down. I'm not used to the light soil mix with 33% Perlite. The pots dried out a lot faster than with the much heavier mix I've used previously.

I love this light mix! Watering more often should pump more oxygen to the roots, and I may be able to double my number of nute feedings throughout the grow.

The excellent drainage from all the Perlite should also help prevent root problems.

I'm sure the 33% Perlite diluted the nutrient package in the FFOF soil to some degree, but I can always add more nutes.

Somewhat off-topic for this grow, but using a light soil mix is new for me and I thought I would share my very favorable impression.

The HGL seedlings are doing fine with the light 6" away.



I would appreciate some feedback on something. The HGL seedlings would benefit from being rotated because the beam is brighter in the center, and if I don't rotate them, the center seedlings may grow faster and/or bigger.

The seedlings under the HSS panel, on the other hand, are receiving more even light and would not benefit nearly as much from being rotated.

So, should I rotate the seedlings under the HGL panel?

Would this be something most growers would do?

 

[groover]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

G'day SS, I think the majority of us would rotate the babies if faced with this in a normal (non comparison) grow so this would not affect the test IMO.
Maybe rotate the HSS plants also(even if they don't need it) just to keep both grows even.
Thanks again for doin this bro.

 

[1234a5678b]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I watered tonight with one gallon of plain RO water per tent. The pots felt light and soil was dry at least 3" down. I'm not used to the light soil mix with 33% Perlite. The pots dried out a lot faster than with the much heavier mix I've used previously.

I love this light mix! Watering more often should pump more oxygen to the roots, and I may be able to double my number of nute feedings throughout the grow.

The excellent drainage from all the Perlite should also help prevent root problems.

I'm sure the 33% Perlite diluted the nutrient package in the FFOF soil to some degree, but I can always add more nutes.

Somewhat off-topic for this grow, but using a light soil mix is new for me and I thought I would share my very favorable impression.

The HGL seedlings are doing fine with the light 6" away.



I would appreciate some feedback on something. The HGL seedlings would benefit from being rotated because the beam is brighter in the center, and if I don't rotate them, the center seedlings may grow faster and/or bigger.

The seedlings under the HSS panel, on the other hand, are receiving more even light and would not benefit nearly as much from being rotated.

So, should I rotate the seedlings under the HGL panel?

Would this be something most growers would do?

For what it's worth:
The lights are very different in their output angle, so I would expect some varitions would be needed to optimize their performance.
I can't say if this might have the potential to favor one light or or the other.
Either way, I have already learned a lot, and this is just the seedling stage.
Keep up the good work.

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

That's a hard call Sun
If you do like groover said you would be moving 8 plants every so often. A pain to me.
Also, isn't it more like giving one light an advantage?
You set them up to manufactures specs, just leave them the way they are.
Glad it's not my call

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

That's a hard call Sun
If you do like groover said you would be moving 8 plants every so often. A pain to me.
Also, isn't it more like giving one light an advantage?
You set them up to manufactures specs, just leave them the way they are.
Glad it's not my call

It is a hard call.

I use a light mover on my HID.
I don't see a problem using a lightmover on an LED....and rotatiing plants is sort of a light mover.....

On the other hand, from a scientific perspective, if you rotate one side, you should rotate the other. That way both lights are doing the same thing and you eliminate the variable.

Just write up the fact that one light has a focal spot and the other light does not.....meaning a light mover is required....added expense.

Then, the final yield will determine which light was more efficient and people can decide if they want one with, or without a light mover....or if they want to rotate plants.

 

[sfhaze]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

All of the seedlings are doing OK at this point with the panels at the recommended distances, so it's steady as she goes for now.

Do you think the compact plants from having the lights down low have less yield?

I don't know, It didn't feel right to me, so I avoid making them super compact. They still stretch out during flowering, but even that stretch is reduced if the lights are real close. The HGL lights have narrow beams, so in theory, they need to be further away to end up with the same intensity. Having the hss lights twice as far away doesn't seem quite right. Right now, I would stick to what you are doing, but once they grow a little more we can see how they are doing.

Good work SS! The seedlings look nice.

 

[therootsofpositivity]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Great job SS! Don't know how I didn't see this thread before, but all caught up and will be keeping a close eye on this like many others. I wish more companies would donate equipment for head to head test like this. I think the whole horticulture industry would benefit greatly. These manufactures get a lot of respect in my books for participating in this thread. Props HydroGrowLED and Haight State. I think not only the the community, but the manufactures will learn a lot and be better able to serve their customers.

It is exciting to see LED technology finally making it to the market. I think one big stigma against patients growing their on medical marijuana is HID lights. I constantly here form authorities how much of a fire hazard they are, how patient use "unsafe" amounts of electricity to use them, etc. I hope that as more people can afford LEDs that this stigma will go away and it will be one less argument authorities have for trying to prevent medical patient from growing their own medicine.

For me I love compact bushy plants with huge fan leaves. With the diminished returns of artificial I light I like to keep everything a short as possible to maximize the photosynthetic area in the lights sweet spot. That is why I am really excited to be trying scrog. Just a nice carpet of green all soaking up maximum amounts of light. I always think with lighting too that in nature these seedling would be exposed to the sun and that is more intense than anything we through at them. If they can survive popping up in to full bright sunlight I don't worry about giving them too much light. I think this is more realistic than babying them and keeping the light far away.

Again great job SS! In my opinion the plants should not be rotated. I think keep everything as simple as possible and then let consumers chose which product is right for them. I think in later grows you can try and maximize everything, right now I think just keep is simple. Great Job!

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

A focused beam is for increased intensity over a smaller canopy
A carrousel might make some amends while costing desired simplicity
Light loving plants will grow where they can, don't even worry about that
If the light's not designed for tents of your kind, results will be a little less phat

 

[The Lurker]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Hey SS,

PPl have chimed in about the Haight having the power advantage. But I think its a bit of an even playing field given the viewing angle on HGL's unit. What are your thoughts on that?

...This is just simple inescapable physics. The HGL light, with a narrower angle, penetrates better and sacrifices area, while the HSS light, with a wider angle, covers more area and sacrifices penetration.

With the HGL light, it's important to try to keep the plants in the "sweet spot" because light energy dissipates quickly outside of it.

The HSS light claims a much larger sweet spot, but depends a lot more on reflective walls to bounce light down to the lower branches.

I'm thinking that because the designs are so different, each light would work best with a different style of grow. The HGL light would work better for growing a few larger plants, while the HSS light would do better with a more horizontal SOG or SCROG style grow.

thanks DroJo! glad you're on-board bro!...

---------------

...Hi TL!

looking forward to your info!

Thanks very much, SS! As promised, the following are some notes I've been putting together on this tech for my own use so as to make a more informed purchasing decision with LEDs. This also elaborates on some comments I made earlier.

If anyone wants to understand the theory, caveats, and assumptions (and my own perspective/notes) I used for the below info, I've pulled this into a separate reference post so as not to clutter up this thread. That also has a link to the spreadsheet I did to create the estimates I used below. For those who want to check it out, here it is:

TL's LED Swipe File

So given a LED of the same wattage (or lumen output) and distance, but using different angle viewing lenses for dispersion:

A 60 degree lens will have:

• ~2.25x the intensity of a 90 degree lens;
• ~4x the intensity of a 120 degree lens;
• ~5.4x the intensity of a 140 degree lens; and
• ¼ (0.25) x the intensity of a 30 degree lens

Thus, I can understand why a 30 degree HGL unit can supposedly penetrate that much further than one of 60 degrees: a 30 degree (lens) LED at two feet has roughly the same intensity as a 60 degree LED at a distance of one foot (i.e. same intensity at twice the distance). The tradeoff is a smaller total garden area covered by the tighter lens LED.

First, I wanted to look at the manufacturer's recommended coverage areas for each unit, in order to see how the dispersion fared in relation to the lens angle. I also ran the #s for the UFO style for comparison, as that is probably the most popular style right now. For reference, that is:

For the HGL and UFO lights, it appears the recommended coverage areas and distances are actually fairly accurate, looking at the dispersion the lights produce (see swipe file for definitions of the percentages used). The HGL light covers ~3 ¾ feet at 12" above the canopy (what they would consider to be their Primary Coverage Area.) The UFO covers a bit more than their recommended 4ft at 6" for flowering, and their 16 sq ft (vegetative) spread occurs between ~13"-14" high. For the HSS unit, the light actually spreads ~2m^2 (their 50" x 60" recommended coverage area) between 8"-9" high, a few inches less than the 12"+ they suggest.

(I also ran the #'s for the 63W Hydro Grow units in the .xls file, as I'm considering those also.)

Whether that actually translates into good growth at those distances is a different matter, however.

The next graph is probably the most interesting. It compares general dispersion of all three lights over the same 6 sq. ft. garden area, assuming one uses the best shape for that particular light (i.e. a circular garden for the UFO light, and rectangular gardens for the other HGL and HSS). I also added my 'ScrOG Special' (a 126W HGL unit with 90 degree lenses – the column labeled 'HGL-S') as another point of reference.

The tables above underscore just how much changing the viewing angle for LEDs affects their overall dispersion (and, while this is not actual intensity, it is directly related to it, certainly – see the swipe file notes for more on this) for each light. Even at 6", the HSS already throws more than half its angle outside of the 6 sq ft area. While a fair portion of this can be redirected/recaptured with reflective materials, the recaptured light is also returned at reduced efficacy. The more direct light we have at any particular distance from the light which falls in the garden area, the better.

By contrast, the regular 60 degree HGL ('HGL-N') unit still has ~all of its light directed within the 6 sq ft area at 12" above the garden. For the UFO, the sweet spot for ~6sf coverage is between "7-8" high; Mmmmick's garden is a good example of what kind of results one can achieve using a UFO light at these distances. Short (ScrOG) plants, and a close proximity to the canopy, are the best garden profile for wide angle lights like these. I think you, Butcher, Mmmmick, and a few others have all commented on LEDs being best used at short distances with ScrOG and short SOG gardens – and I would tend to agree.


The real differences in efficacy between lights become evident the farther away from the lamp one goes (i.e. when growing taller plants, most times). While the normal Hydro Grow unit still directs almost 1/3 of its light directly at the garden at 36" away (which would equate to what happens near the bottom of a 30" tall plant with the light positioned 6" from the top, for example), the Haight and UFO lights throw the majority of it to the sides, instead of at the garden, at these distances (again, direct intensity is higher than this, but it (dispersion) certainly has a marked effect on overall growth – especially if the light is not recaptured). Which is probably why they don't seem to be able to produce any real (significant) budding farther than 12" away from the top of the plants.

The swipe file has another chart showing how much area each light tries to illuminate at each distance, but I think the point has been made. There are only so many watts to go around, obviously; larger (area) is definitely not always better, when one is talking about plant lighting...

(I also like the fact that the HGL units used a larger dimension light board than their counterparts (63W in 120 spaces for their smaller unit, and 126W in 288 spaces (i.e. 12 x 24)) with their narrow angle lens, helping coverage out a bit while keeping good intensity)
---------------------------

For me, and as a longtime ScrOG convert, my preferred light (the HGL-S example) reflects a midpoint between good intensity for decent growth with plants with the primary budding areas at 12" or less above the canopy, and sufficient spread for proper garden coverage. Right now, this would take the shape of a custom HGL unit (in spectrum) with 90 degree lenses. I think a smart manufacturer would recognize enough of a market in these to make this a standard option for their lights.

You'll notice that a 60 degree unit at 12" covers almost the same area as a 90 degree unit at 6". Or, by raising the 90 deg. light another couple of inches, you'll illuminate another ~2 sq ft of garden area or thereabouts. This means that a 20-24 sq ft garden could be sufficiently covered by three LED units, instead of four. For me, that's worth doing – especially if you're growing short plants. The 90 deg. light could also do a decent job growing short bushes (under 24" – the shorter, the better), and provide good coverage for mothers and clones on the vegetative side.

(While more light generally = better yield, a point of diminishing returns will eventually be reached, past a certain point, with any garden. Just as a 4'x4' garden may be ideal on a per square foot basis with 1000W HPS, by expanding that to 5'x5', you'll increase overall yield - with the additional 9 sq ft at the periphery simply contributing less than the primary area per additional s.f.)

That's where the intensity vs. distance discussion comes back into focus. While the 90 deg. lens is less than half the intensity of a 60 degree lens at the same distance, at half the distance, however, the intensity of the HGL-S at 6" is 78% greater per LED used (4/2.25), than the 60 degree lens at 12" (while still covering the same area) for the area directly under the light, and slightly less than the 60 degree lens intensity (at 12") at the periphery. Which will translate into greater yield overall, provided there is enough space to spread out.

So, if you're using one light, and have sufficient room, the best yield would be with a 90 degree lens using ScrOG. Give me some additional s.f. of garden (even at a reduced intensity), and I'll give you more bud.

Or – get the 60 degree lens unit and keep it at 6" (if your garden's not much larger than the dimensions of the fixture), to really blast your plants with as much light as possible.

With the Pro units coming out Q2 2010 with 50%+ more lumens, that should only improve what a 'ScrOG Special' could do, IMO. At those intensities, we may start to see plant bleaching at 6" (60 deg lens), even; might as well spread it out and maximize the coverage instead.

--------------------------------------

While the Haight light has 6W LEDs (which are less efficient in lumens/watt than 1W LEDs), to Drojo's comments, the 140 degree lens used is less than one fifth the intensity at a particular distance than a 60 degree lens. So, the differences in intensity between HGL and HSS within the normal effective range above the canopy are probably negligible overall. There may be some advantage for HSS very close to the light – near where bleaching tends to occur, perhaps. But once the plants get too tall (above ScrOG or low SOG level), the HGL wins the intensity/dispersion game, if not coverage per se, differences in wattage notwithstanding.

While 140 deg. lenses are good for automotive uses (such as a driver being able to see the brake lights in a wide angle when following behind a vehicle – a nice goal when considering safety), they're probably not so good for growing. I think HSS would definitely benefit from trying to change them out for something narrower – at least 90 degrees or so – which would more than double the current intensity at a given distance, and still allow for good coverage. Or make a 2nd product line, and market those to different customers depending on their specific growing style. That (90 deg) would be a nice compromise between low, short gardens and bush style growing, IMO. Provided those lenses are available for 6W LEDs, of course.

---------------------------

If anything, I'd say this comparison is as ideal a scenario (outside of ScrOG, which would be ideal for HSS, and great for HGL also) to show what both lights can do (given that the plants should finish up at ~18"-22" high) as possible, and give the HSS a fighting chance as well.

Anyway, that's my present take on current LED tech. I'd be interested to hear what you think about it (and the manufacturer's opinions, as well, if they want to comment).

Thanks for the great job so far, SS! Keep up the good work. Look forward to the results, should be very interesting, in any event!


Regards,

-TL

 

[Eagle1]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

i'm rotating(turning) in my grow with HGL 126w it's LST and has 63w sidelight so i can't say. I would definitely rotate the HGL to maximize yield and even growth.

 

[Scooby_Snacks]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Glad I didn't smoke before trying to read Lurkers post.........

.... loved the info, thanks for sharing that man, but I now need a

 

[Bolivar]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Thanks for the info and analysis, Lurker.

 

[kevin.n]

Re: Perlite

What was your basis for the 25% mix of perlite? Just learning. Thanks

 

[WarBux79]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Last time I read this journal was a few days ago. Lots of new pages. I have found that 6 inches is the perfect height for veg unless your trying to stretch your plants. I also noticed with both of mine that the tips start to bleach under 5 inches at least until about week 5 of flower.

Rotating the plants adds another variable and a considerable amount of work. They will grow into the extra space pretty quickly anyway.

I am curious about the HSS light. Is the whole unit basically one big heat-sync and the lens? I like the ultra slim profile they have.

 

[1234a5678b]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Last time I read this journal was a few days ago. Lots of new pages. I have found that 6 inches is the perfect height for veg unless your trying to stretch your plants. I also noticed with both of mine that the tips start to bleach under 5 inches at least until about week 5 of flower.

Rotating the plants adds another variable and a considerable amount of work. They will grow into the extra space pretty quickly anyway.

I am curious about the HSS light. Is the whole unit basically one big heat-sync and the lens? I like the ultra slim profile they have.

I'm no electronics expert, but that appears to be the case.

 

[WarBux79]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I'm no electronics expert, but that appears to be the case.

Thats a real small profile. I wonder how hot it gets. Setting Sun you have all the cool toys, do you have an infrared thermometer?

 

[1234a5678b]

Re: Hosted Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Thats a real small profile. I wonder how hot it gets. Setting Sun you have all the cool toys, do you have an infrared thermometer?

Don't have a thermometer, but the top gets to the high end of warm. I wouldn't leave my hand on it for any extended period of time.