Trimming before flowering?

[GigaGrew]

from a 420 point of view, it holds enough merit to let it play out as a sub culture. the problem with the naysayers is they have yet to come up with equally tangible proof that its actually a horrific mistake. so we can all be cool and let the leaves fall where they may

from a personal point of view, i love tinkering, i went with a catchphrase for a business idea a few years ago thats amusing and roughly appropriate. "like nature, but better". i want to play with it and see if it works...but as i start to hit the numbers i want...well there is no way on this planet im going to start calculating thos man hours defoliating!

im far more likely to comission the worlds first robotic cannabis combine harvester with modified facial recognition software to identify bud from leaf and stem, and robotic edward scissor hands.....lets really grow boys

 

[JJ Bones]

Are there any links about this method and it's benefits? Or is it just the beginning of this thread?

 

[GigaGrew]

If only I could rep you more Fuzzy Duck haha.

I scratch my head at this method as well, it doesn't make sense for what I understand about photosynthesis?

im sorry this is so abstract, but this is just a feeling i get or some balls like that

i think it may have something to do with a plant having quite a large level of redundancy built in and the energy requirements to maintain such an infrastructure.

a sysonym (yeah i know its not the right word but ,you know) would be;

a human brain in a tank, alive and aware..whatever else, that 'human' would have a MUCH lower energy and o2 nutrient overhead.

 

[Cultivator]

it does work when done correctly under correct conditions with most strains ive tried. i grow alot of weed, alot. and it does work. but who am i to say anything, i know what works for me and other very successful growers. but its not the only way to get the job done. rather than see others side by side grow why dont u guys try it then u will know for urself if it works or not rather than assume it doesnt cos it says so in a book.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Are there any links about this method and it's benefits? Or is it just the beginning of this thread?

Their are a few youtube vids on the matter but one must percieve the grow style involved with the defoliation method which may blur the end results !

Decent records are far & few between !

 

[GigaGrew]

Decent records are far & few between !

amen to that =(

if im honest at this exact moment in time im about 2 joints away from my bed and a credible answer to this will take some serious work and time i have yet to schedule.

from my angle im trying to look back to 'the old ways' to find historical evidence of defoliation being used beneficially ever, with any plant to increase a desired result.
I have seen nice deep documents but that only briefly touch on the subject. im certain that a master bonsai sculpter with a good history of that area would have some good answers on the subject, lets face it ye old arabic and asia areas of the world kicked ass sometimes on research breakthroughts.

i still want to know more about the hanging gardens at babylonia

anyways im wrecked and waffling and out of this till my head is back on

 

[JJ Bones]

What is the theory of it? Why would it help? I'm trying to understand the logic.

And Cultivator, if it works for you and your 100% confident, then you're spot on with your mind set, IMO. Do what works for you, best way to think about gardening for sure.

I'm not claiming it does not work, I'm trying to understand how or why it would work.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

it does work when done correctly under correct conditions with most strains ive tried. i grow alot of weed, alot. and it does work. but who am i to say anything, i know what works for me and other very successful growers. but its not the only way to get the job done. rather than see others side by side grow why dont u guys try it then u will know for urself if it works or not rather than assume it doesnt cos it says so in a book.

Well theirs no denying that defoliation does not harm the plant as regenerative growth appears just fine but whether in fact it increase's yield is some what questionable at best, due to lack of hard evidence !

If it did improve yield, would we not find more journals or hard facts upon the method used that is the question ?


Growing MJ is often assoicated with confusing & misleading answers due to hearsay & lack of knowledge which proves difficult to find any level of hard facts to the uneducated through what ever method used to research knowledge ?... just read my signature


But non the less i shall give this method a go to test results


As i have grown the Nirvana - Blue Mystic strain a few times to say the least & currently have the 5th grow in veg, well just potted up the cuttings into small pots for root growth etc i shall dedicate that grow to defoliation techinque


I know the charactistics of this strain & average yield due to last 3 grows and 4th in flowering using the LST method !


A new journal shall commence shortly of the 5th Blue Mystic grow including defoliation & LST methods which shall be monitored with more than a careful eye !


It shall be unbaised as i have a majority of results of Blue Mystic grows currently in my sig & with as much detail as one can provide !

 

[tomatofarmer]

My understanding (which is limited and why i started this thread) is not near as on par as most of these guys on here. I have read this forum multiple times and have done much outside research as well. This also being my first grow and so much effort put in to making this work, I've been "trying" to b cautious and well informed.

But my understanding of this and why i did complete defoliation is because of a few things. First fan leaves store energy and process nutrients that feed and store energy for the plants. What i read and makes sense to me is that a plant without fan leaves in nature would be injured and damaged, But one that is grown in ideal conditions (fixed light source, nice nutrient regiment, temperature and humidity controlled, control of the PH and etc.) will not need the energy reserve to that degree.

sweet leaves work similar to fan leaves, but not near to the degree of fan leaves but with the nutes and "ideal" conditions the fan leaves are not necessary. But the sweet leaves still provide sum energy to the flowers.

also the stunted growth is another common worry. I've read from other full defoliators that day 21 and 45 of flower are when to fully defoliate because the growth in the plant is focused on the flower and bud sites. with all the fan leaves removed the plant the plant struggles a bit but then is focused on repairing itself, but the hormone levels in the plant are prioritizing the flowers and bud sites over the lost fan leaves.

This in (what i've read 4 to 11 days) will be noticed. 2 days after i did it (got pics on page 5) the sweet leaves were significantly bigger and the flowers looked more developed. now that is early and it may just be my "hazy" optimism but since then the plants only have looked better. (other than the missing fan leaves, kinda looks like a green tumble weed)

I wish i would've had 1 with defoliation and 1 without so i could get a side by side, but this is my first grow and im just looking to succeed with the crop. I will post more pics of my plants soon.

If any of my info is straight wrong please also let me know im not trying to tell people what to do or that this works im just showing you how i interpret it and the info i gathered and first had experience.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

My understanding (which is limited and why i started this thread) is not near as on par as most of these guys on here. I have read this forum multiple times and have done much outside research as well. This also being my first grow and so much effort put in to making this work, I've been "trying" to b cautious and well informed.

But my understanding of this and why i did complete defoliation is because of a few things. First fan leaves store energy and process nutrients that feed and store energy for the plants. What i read and makes sense to me is that a plant without fan leaves in nature would be injured and damaged, But one that is grown in ideal conditions (fixed light source, nice nutrient regiment, temperature and humidity controlled, control of the PH and etc.) will not need the energy reserve to that degree.

sweet leaves work similar to fan leaves, but not near to the degree of fan leaves but with the nutes and "ideal" conditions the fan leaves are not necessary. But the sweet leaves still provide sum energy to the flowers.

also the stunted growth is another common worry. I've read from other full defoliators that day 21 and 45 of flower are when to fully defoliate because the growth in the plant is focused on the flower and bud sites. with all the fan leaves removed the plant the plant struggles a bit but then is focused on repairing itself, but the hormone levels in the plant are prioritizing the flowers and bud sites over the lost fan leaves.

This in (what i've read 4 to 11 days) will be noticed. 2 days after i did it (got pics on page 5) the sweet leaves were significantly bigger and the flowers looked more developed. now that is early and it may just be my "hazy" optimism but since then the plants only have looked better. (other than the missing fan leaves, kinda looks like a green tumble weed)

I wish i would've had 1 with defoliation and 1 without so i could get a side by side, but this is my first grow and im just looking to succeed with the crop. I will post more pics of my plants soon.

If any of my info is straight wrong please also let me know im not trying to tell people what to do or that this works im just showing you how i interpret it and the info i gathered and first had experience.

That is a good summary of your conclusion & wish you the best in your 1st grow



Its just that some of us are die hard fanactics & that we require more information in our endevours of MJ


Basically tryed 'n' tested methods to, Er new stuff...

 

[Stilletto]

Hey all..... I have been following this thread closely but have not chimed in since I have nothing new to offer the discussion ... yet.

As I stated earlier, I am doing a side by side comparison as we speak and will have results soon(4weeks). I planned to start a new thread on the subject soon and get some progress pics up. I read all I could and was in a great spot to do this. My timing worked well and I will explain it all on my future post.

I have been staying quiet because it seems some people already have thier minds made up and even if my results show no improved yeild they will say my test is skewed or conditions were variable. I will even do one more side by side on the next run so I can confirm results.

Experimenting is one of my favorate parts of the hobby, I have ran side by sides on MH/hps... different nute systems, different topping techniques, flushing, etc. I have kept a written journal for last 8 years that spans 40+ harvests with hundreds of plants.

I jumped into this thread rather aggressively and politely backed down when I seemed to offended some people. So instead of theororizing I decided just to do it and see. I didn't want to be stubborn in my opinions without accually trying it. I will be happy to share my knowledge as I go along.

Since I have had my system dialed in for so long I have had great consistancy and it is easy to do these comparisons. The strain currently is Triple X and the next test will be on Strawberry Cough, I have ran both many times.

I will also point out that I read Bassmans, Gigabanes, and a few other members journals that defoliate. I did what they all said, now we will see. I will point out that not many of them are pulling in big yeilds/plant or per watt. NO OFFENCE.... just pointing it out... on avg I get 20-24 oz with 4 plants under 800w every 8 weeks. Maybe I was not reading thier #'s correctly... sorry if I am mistaken. My point is that when someone who gets smaller yeilds than I do swears that something they are doing is better than what I do it makes me wonder.

Before you jump at me please correct me if I am wrong... post your yeilds.

I look forward to starting my side by side journal... maybe we can all learn something.

Jonny

 

[gairbud]

we have very similar methods . as i can tell you know your stuff. i too get huge yeilds. in small places with little trimming at all. i like sog and scrog and trelus my outdoor stuff. and get amazing results and yeilds. i have tryed many trim techniques and they really dont work that well. training and tieing up the heavy buds get way better results. as i have done clones side by side in all 4 labs. i too love experamenting . cross breading ect.
i do seed crops all the time in the same system with out getting seed in the rest of the crop. i keep the males seperate and have developed a cool way to just seed a plant or branch i want. picking stony ass males is the key to increesing potency even in the same strain. i have grown mexican and columbian bag seed that blows cali dispenory top shelf right off the shelf. [to a much lower one.] lmao. i always say
'know the plant'
'know your plant'
and also when some one asks me why i dont defoliate/trim...
i say 'why would i want to fuck up my plants'.
i have outgrown better stuff useing clones from other growers i know and they changed the way they grow after i stomped their grow with their clones off same plants. they grow very similar to me now.
many here are set in their ways. i have tryed over and over most everyway here in 420 over the years. and so when they called me on it i figure OK
ill start from the begining to the end. so look up
"the a b c of this new grow"
from building the system to germination to picking males , water ferts ect harvest dry and curing to field testing. ect the entire process. seed growing the works. will all be in the a b c .
so now they will have to wait and watch it grow. lmao.
i dont mean any disrespect to the peeps here. been watching this site for over 2 yrs then joined last year after watching expert advanced advice given to new growers who have lots of failed crops. they need to learn the plant. really learn it.

 

[GigaGrew]

i know i certainly dont count among the high yielders yet, i am not dialled in for such.i have no humidity control, no cooling for my lights im not using any chemical ferts OR the usual additives used in organics, the only thing my journals prove is just how little you can give plants and still get something out of it.

this current journal i have going is expected to be an ongoing journal mapping my relationship with a single strain and bringing that and my grow conditions into symbiosis. ill be taking on the task of studying defoliation on auto's but there is no point even trying to experiment till i have an ultra stable strain and my breeding stocks are only just starting.

im just waiting for seeds to be honest, i got loads of room to expand once i start making harvests.

 

[Cultivator]

Hey all..... I have been following this thread closely but have not chimed in since I have nothing new to offer the discussion ... yet.

As I stated earlier, I am doing a side by side comparison as we speak and will have results soon(4weeks). I planned to start a new thread on the subject soon and get some progress pics up. I read all I could and was in a great spot to do this. My timing worked well and I will explain it all on my future post.

I have been staying quiet because it seems some people already have thier minds made up and even if my results show no improved yeild they will say my test is skewed or conditions were variable. I will even do one more side by side on the next run so I can confirm results.

Experimenting is one of my favorate parts of the hobby, I have ran side by sides on MH/hps... different nute systems, different topping techniques, flushing, etc. I have kept a written journal for last 8 years that spans 40+ harvests with hundreds of plants.

I jumped into this thread rather aggressively and politely backed down when I seemed to offended some people. So instead of theororizing I decided just to do it and see. I didn't want to be stubborn in my opinions without accually trying it. I will be happy to share my knowledge as I go along.

Since I have had my system dialed in for so long I have had great consistancy and it is easy to do these comparisons. The strain currently is Triple X and the next test will be on Strawberry Cough, I have ran both many times.

I will also point out that I read Bassmans, Gigabanes, and a few other members journals that defoliate. I did what they all said, now we will see. I will point out that not many of them are pulling in big yeilds/plant or per watt. NO OFFENCE.... just pointing it out... on avg I get 20-24 oz with 4 plants under 800w every 8 weeks. Maybe I was not reading thier #'s correctly... sorry if I am mistaken. My point is that when someone who gets smaller yeilds than I do swears that something they are doing is better than what I do it makes me wonder.

Before you jump at me please correct me if I am wrong... post your yeilds.

I look forward to starting my side by side journal... maybe we can all learn something.

Jonny

i pull on average 55oz off per 2 600w hps but often more. depends on system really. but thats the least i would expect. now using that as the lowest yield if thats sub par im ok with that. i will be weighing everything with pics and as much evidence as i can put in in my journals. but what do i know...........

just so we clear im not a closet grower. right now i have around the 200 plant mark on the go. and ive grown thousands of plants but maybe ive fluked my way through it. each to their own, and what works dont break it however u do it.

 

[Cultivator]

we have very similar methods . as i can tell you know your stuff. i too get huge yeilds. in small places with little trimming at all. i like sog and scrog and trelus my outdoor stuff. and get amazing results and yeilds. i have tryed many trim techniques and they really dont work that well. training and tieing up the heavy buds get way better results. as i have done clones side by side in all 4 labs. i too love experamenting . cross breading ect.
i do seed crops all the time in the same system with out getting seed in the rest of the crop. i keep the males seperate and have developed a cool way to just seed a plant or branch i want. picking stony ass males is the key to increesing potency even in the same strain. i have grown mexican and columbian bag seed that blows cali dispenory top shelf right off the shelf. [to a much lower one.] lmao. i always say
'know the plant'
'know your plant'
and also when some one asks me why i dont defoliate/trim...
i say 'why would i want to fuck up my plants'.
i have outgrown better stuff useing clones from other growers i know and they changed the way they grow after i stomped their grow with their clones off same plants. they grow very similar to me now.
many here are set in their ways. i have tryed over and over most everyway here in 420 over the years. and so when they called me on it i figure OK
ill start from the begining to the end. so look up
"the a b c of this new grow"
from building the system to germination to picking males , water ferts ect harvest dry and curing to field testing. ect the entire process. seed growing the works. will all be in the a b c .
so now they will have to wait and watch it grow. lmao.
i dont mean any disrespect to the peeps here. been watching this site for over 2 yrs then joined last year after watching expert advanced advice given to new growers who have lots of failed crops. they need to learn the plant. really learn it.

with respect with the knowledge u have why not post a journal. easy to talk u know what i mean? just i see u posting alot but u not showing what u do. i think the community have alot more respect if u show some of what u are talking. i dont show everything in my journals for whatever reason but i show enough to back up what im saying. just saying......

 

[gairbud]

check
the a b c of this new grow.
they not even a month old.

 

[Cultivator]

which new grow mate

 

[gairbud]

forum
Do It Yourself
thread
the a.b.c. of this new grow.
by gairbud.

 

[Bassman59]

I'm in harvest now on my high defoliation grow. After trimming 2 of 4 plants I've weighed each and they came in at 1000 grams and 1320 grams WET. That's roughly 20oz dry from those two. Both are under 3 feet tall. Two more to go. Probably a week before I have dry weights.

I do not use CO2, I use 1k w hps to flower, in a 5x5 tent. I defoliate them HARD in veg TWICE, then at end of stretch or about 21 days, and continually from there.

Hasnt hurt my girls at all from what I see.

For those able to do massive plant numbers like 200 2l hempys, they may get better yield per watt. But for those of us limited to very small plant numbers, needing to get the most possible, it has been my experience as a good method. I can only have 4 in flower at a time in my state. So I'm happy with what I am doing thus far with such low numbers.

 

[Stilletto]

Thx for the replies guys.
As I said..... I saw your journals.... I know some of you guys are punching up some big harvests, Many, many props to you guys. I believe hydro will produce bigger yeilds (when done properly) but I doubt if I will go that way, not convenient for me. Bassman.... I have been a fan of yours for a long time (no disrespect to the rest of you)

Jonny