SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[SweetSue]

I do not have an answer for you as I also feel like I am stumbling in the dark. I am going to look into this much more. I usually make my CCO first and reclaim the alcohol and then make it into topical pain oil or capsules or brownies etc depending on what cut of the plant I am making the oil from. I am relatively new at this and only know enough to be dangerous, so I read a lot and experiment a lot. I do have folks that I have been making roll on topical pain oil for that keep asking for more. I am now branching out into tinctures and capsules for medical issues, but not cancer as I am not competent. More for relief from CP, MS, depression, and anxiety type of issues.
I learn a lot from what you share on the forums and have followed information you have shared. Thank you for taking on this calling, it has helped me a great deal.

Awww.... You're so welcome. It's become a passion I can't ignore. I guess this is my creative expression for my later years.

Treating cancer with CCO isn't as intimidating for me as it was in the beginning. For one thing, we're all experimenting anyway, and the doctors most times know less than we do, but most importantly, we can't hurt anyone with cannabis, so my thoughts are we have nothing to lose by trying and everything to lose by hesitating. The approach is always the same, start low and increase slowly. There are contraindications you learn as you go, but if you're open and honest with people they really appreciate having someone to help them sort through all the fluff to get to the basic concepts.

Understanding cancer, that's intimidating. I have excellent reference books I don't hesitate to reach for. The compassion part is instinctive. We all have that or we wouldn't be here, would we?

 

[AngryBird]

beautifully said Sue

Treating cancer with CCO isn't as intimidating for me as it was in the beginning. For one thing, we're all experimenting anyway, and the doctors most times know less than we do, but most importantly, we can't hurt anyone with cannabis, so my thoughts are we have nothing to lose by trying and everything to lose by hesitating. The approach is always the same, start low and increase slowly. There are contraindications you learn as you go, but if you're open and honest with people they really appreciate having someone to help them sort through all the fluff to get to the basic concepts.

Understanding cancer, that's intimidating.

 

[Mr. Krip]

The lecithin granules he used had 22% phosphatidyl choline, and his point was the liquid soy lecithin was deficient in this component. The liquid sunflower has a total of 38% phosphatidyls:
* phosphatidyl choline 19%
* phosphatidyl inositol 12%
* phosphatidyl ethanolamine 7%

I think that means we made the better choice.

I took the time to work out some formulations for the BioBomb capsules if you're interested Mighty Mouse. We substitute carrier oil for water, I kept the lecithin at a constant 15 ml and the alcohol at a steady 12%, as per the patent info from that site you linked. (I just realized they said 10-12% on the alcohol, so we have more play.) The variable is the carrier oil. I'd like your opinion on these, if you don't mind. I sometimes feel as though I'm stumbling in the dark, placing my faith in the cosmos to lead me to where I need to be.

This is just a start. I wanted to see if these made any sense to everyone. With our recipe the CCO is constant at 1 gram/ml, lecithin stays the same at 15ml and the alcohol stays between 10-12% of volume. The carrier oil is the big variable. So I played with some numbers. I think we can get away with the strongest solvent we can get. I'm not so concerned about that, although I recommend something as pure as you can get. The closer to pure alcohol the better.

20:1 ratio at 65 ml

CCO 2% 1 ml
Lecithin 23% 15 ml
Alcohol 11% 7 ml
Carrier oil 64% 41.6 ml

10:1 ratio at 55 ml

CCO 2% 1 ml
Lecithin 27% 15 ml
Alcohol 11% 6 ml
Carrier oil 60% 33 ml

5:1 ratio at 40 ml

CCO 2% 1 ml
Lecithin 38% 15 ml
Alcohol 10% 4 ml
Carrier oil 50% 20 ml


I have a problem with the alcohol, and it's that Cajun told me directly that the alcohol wasn't necessary. This doesn't mean I don't consider that he may not have known about this process, but he was emphatic about this point. We need to determine if the alcohol used with the Vit C process isn't because they're using water. So my question is whether it's a necessary addition with an oil base? I'm not certain yet what role the alcohol plays and how that translates over to what we're doing, if in fact it does.

The article was insistent that the alcohol was a major reason that the liposomes were created. In the patent info it says:

[0052]
In the cold process, the lipids are preferably completely, or mostly, solubilized in an aqueous solvent or in a solvent miscible with water, such as most alcohols. Where the liposome composition is for oral administration, the aqueous solvent is preferably one that is suitable for ingestion. In embodiments where the solvent in the cold process is an alcohol, it preferred that the final alcohol content in the final product is less than about 10-12 weight percent, based on the weight of the final product. Although alcohol is not essential to form a stable liposome product, it does appear to be helpful for making a translucent gel. Alcohol further has the benefit of serving as an effective preservative. The use of alcohol may also be helpful or effective for forming small liposomes in the size range of about 200-500 nm. Other aqueous solvents are suitable and known to those of skill in the art. However, some solvents may result in a more turbid appearance than compositions made with alcohol,

- Method of making liposomes, liposome compositions made by the methods, and methods of using the same
US 20120171280 A


So, how necessary would that alcohol be when we're using oils instead of water and capsules instead of drinking the solution?

Anyone have any thoughts about any of this?

Can you post a link to that full article so I can take a closer look?

It seems to me that the alcohol would not be necessary at all when using oil and that article would be more appropriate if alcohol was used as the carrier for the meds.

I could be wrong on this, but believe what they're saying is, if the drug is water soluble (like THC infused alcohol), it should be suspended in an "aqueous" (water-based) solution.

In the case where the drug is oil soluble (such as THC infused oil) I don't even think the water should be used, since oil & water don't mix. Theoretically (again, I think!) you would have to suspend it in another oil-based (lipid) solution which likely isn't needed because the dosage is already suspended in the oil.

Where are the REAL scientists to help shed some light on this???

 

[weenmeoff]

Thanks Sue! You should be teaching the class you took. I guess you kind of are right here in this journal.

With that DEA/FDA article let's not forget how addictive MMJ is unlike those beneficial schedule 2 drugs like heroin and cocaine.

 

[Canna Montana]

Can you post a link to that full article so I can take a closer look?

It seems to me that the alcohol would not be necessary at all when using oil and that article would be more appropriate if alcohol was used as the carrier for the meds.

I could be wrong on this, but believe what they're saying is, if the drug is water soluble (like THC infused alcohol), it should be suspended in an "aqueous" (water-based) solution.

In the case where the drug is oil soluble (such as THC infused oil) I don't even think the water should be used, since oil & water don't mix. Theoretically (again, I think!) you would have to suspend it in another oil-based (lipid) solution which likely isn't needed because the dosage is already suspended in the oil.

Where are the REAL scientists to help shed some light on this???

I'm so interested in what you guys have going on. Making Cco today if you need a guinea pig to make some of those. Let me know. I'll be home all day, it's raining here and I only have the soft top on with the windows out. The doors are still.on, but I just don't feel like going anywhere. Lol

 

[SweetSue]

Can you post a link to that full article so I can take a closer look?

It seems to me that the alcohol would not be necessary at all when using oil and that article would be more appropriate if alcohol was used as the carrier for the meds.

I could be wrong on this, but believe what they're saying is, if the drug is water soluble (like THC infused alcohol), it should be suspended in an "aqueous" (water-based) solution.

In the case where the drug is oil soluble (such as THC infused oil) I don't even think the water should be used, since oil & water don't mix. Theoretically (again, I think!) you would have to suspend it in another oil-based (lipid) solution which likely isn't needed because the dosage is already suspended in the oil.

Where are the REAL scientists to help shed some light on this???

Here's the link again, K:

Quality Liposomal Vit C

The link to the patent

Patent US20120171280 - Method of making liposomes, liposome compositions made by the methods, and ... - Google Patents

Thank you for your thoughts. This is kinda where my head went. I'm going to ask Shiggity to take a look.

 

[SweetSue]

I do not have an answer for you as I also feel like I am stumbling in the dark. I am going to look into this much more. I usually make my CCO first and reclaim the alcohol and then make it into topical pain oil or capsules or brownies etc depending on what cut of the plant I am making the oil from. I am relatively new at this and only know enough to be dangerous, so I read a lot and experiment a lot. I do have folks that I have been making roll on topical pain oil for that keep asking for more. I am now branching out into tinctures and capsules for medical issues, but not cancer as I am not competent. More for relief from CP, MS, depression, and anxiety type of issues.
I learn a lot from what you share on the forums and have followed information you have shared. Thank you for taking on this calling, it has helped me a great deal.

I was rereading your post here and wondering how you decide which part of the plant would be best for those applications, because my own approach is to include as much variety of plant material into all of my oil. That means I'm going to try to get parts of stem and some fans in with the buds. I try to get about 80% buds by weight and then make up the remaining 20% with what would be considered by some to be substandard materials, but to me hold the potential of a more varied cannabinoid mix. The test results Cajun once shared from his own mix like this convinced me this was the way to go.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Ok I am not sure if you guys have gone over this yet so pardon me if I am repeating old stuff. So lecithin is composed of phospholipids which you guys have mentioned. Phospholipids are what make up our cell walls. They have two ends. A hydrophobic (literal meaning water fearing) and a hydrophilic (water loving). This is what makes them so unique. So if you put them in water they will form multilayer aggregates, complexes where the hydrophobic ends are trying to face away from the water, and the hydrophilic ends try and orient towards the water. So you can get structures like micelles. When we disrupt these phospholipids with ultrasound or extrude them through small pore size filters they can form liposomes. Liposomes are dual layered phospholipid membranes with water inside the dual layer. This approximates a simple cell. You have water outside this cell and inside this cell. So for vitamin C the vitamin C will be encapsulated by the liposome and remain dissolved in the water inside this "cell."
So why the heck would we do this? Well it is because vitamin C doesn't absorb well into cells when in aqueous solution. Vitamin C is a big molecule and must be transported into the cell which is slow and energy expensive. Why does the liposome help? Take a look at this figure...

The "molecules" in this figure represent the vitamin C. As you can see the phospholipids readily fuse with the cell membrane. They are both made of phospholipids. They join together much in the way oil droplets will fuse together when you see fat on the top of simmering soup. As a result the vitamin C is transferred directly inside of the cell at zero energy cost. I used to transfer DNA into mammalian cells using this very mechanism.

Now think about THC...THC is oil soluble (hydrophobic). Where in the liposome would it reside? Well if we take an aqueous solution and add the THC and lecithin and then make liposomes, the THC would move to the hydrophobic center of the lipid bilateral of the created liposomes. It won't be inside the "cell" like Vitamin C. It will sit in the hydrophobic area of the "cell membrane" because it wants to get away from the water loving outside heads of the phospholipids. Then when it fuses with the cells in your body the THC will go to the membrane of the cell. What's in the membrane of a cell? Receptors. (And tons of other proteins). So it can readily bind to receptors in the membrane. That's why it is more bioavailable when you add lecithin. It helps the THC be delivered.

Now here is something interesting. Will liposomes be created in a lipid environment? I don't think so. We need water to create the bilayer. I believe what you would end up with is oil droplets with a single not double layer at the edge of the lipid droplets. This may help with cell membrane fusion but I don't really know much about how it would go so I don't want to make conjecture.

Where does alcohol come into the picture? Alcohol is a solvent that can help decrease the strong association of the hydrophobic "glue" that holds lipid bilateral together. I believe this would allow the creation of smaller liposomes. Smaller liposomes would have less internal capacity but be able to move around the body more efficiently.

So I would think that alcohol wouldn't help with an entirely lipid environment but would help greatly in a water / oil emulsion to create smaller more effective liposomes. I hope this helps.

 

[SweetSue]

Thank you Shiggity. This is information I've been trying to get my brain wrapped around for months now and you made it so much easier to digest.

This is what I was thinking. The cannabinoid loads we're making with the capsules are entirely oil and lecithin, so the alcohol is totally unnecessary.

Ok, I'll drop the alcohol from the formulations and we go back to the original mix of nothing more than CCO, carrier oil of choice and lecithin. Hahaha! Can anybody else hear Cajun off to the side quietly shaking his head and saying "I told you that months ago gal. " Yeah Mon Ami, you should know by now I'll bang my wings against that window until it opens and understanding commences.

Thank you again Shiggity. I'll have to tap you with reps for that.

Edit: No can do on the reps. Believe it or not, I thought you were brilliant somewhere else in the past 24 hours.



God, I feel so relieved. I should have come to you sooner Shiggs.

 

[SweetSue]

Canna, what are you making the oil with? Indica or sativa? Just curious.

 

[AngryBird]

I gave him some reps for you

 

[SweetSue]

My last chore before bed.

Goodnight everyone.

 

[Dave Groomer]

Thank you Shiggity. This is information I've been trying to get my brain wrapped around for months now and you made it so much easier to digest.

This is what I was thinking. The cannabinoid loads we're making with the capsules are entirely oil and lecithin, so the alcohol is totally unnecessary.

Ok, I'll drop the alcohol from the formulations and we go back to the original mix of nothing more than CCO, carrier oil of choice and lecithin. Hahaha! Can anybody else hear Cajun off to the side quietly shaking his head and saying "I told you that months ago gal. " Yeah Mon Ami, you should know by now I'll bang my wings against that window until it opens and understanding commences.

Thank you again Shiggity. I'll have to tap you with reps for that.

Edit: No can do on the reps. Believe it or not, I thought you were brilliant somewhere else in the past 24 hours.



God, I feel so relieved. I should have come to you sooner Shiggs.

Reps from me Shiggs. That was a good piece of reading!!!

 

[CajunCelt]

Thank you Shiggity. This is information I've been trying to get my brain wrapped around for months now and you made it so much easier to digest.

This is what I was thinking. The cannabinoid loads we're making with the capsules are entirely oil and lecithin, so the alcohol is totally unnecessary.

Ok, I'll drop the alcohol from the formulations and we go back to the original mix of nothing more than CCO, carrier oil of choice and lecithin. Hahaha! Can anybody else hear Cajun off to the side quietly shaking his head and saying "I told you that months ago gal. " Yeah Mon Ami, you should know by now I'll bang my wings against that window until it opens and understanding commences.

Thank you again Shiggity. I'll have to tap you with reps for that.

Edit: No can do on the reps. Believe it or not, I thought you were brilliant somewhere else in the past 24 hours.



God, I feel so relieved. I should have come to you sooner Shiggs.

I told ya that months ago gal.

 

[SweetSue]

I told ya that months ago gal.

There you are stranger. Good to see you still up and running.

 

[KeifKeith]

Thank you Shiggity. T
Edit: No can do on the reps. Believe it or not, I thought you were brilliant somewhere else in the past 24 hours.
God, I feel so relieved. I should have come to you sooner Shiggs.

Reps by proxy, thank you ShiggityFlip and SweetSue.

 

[Canna Montana]

Canna, what are you making the oil with? Indica or sativa? Just curious.

We have been using indica. We really want to make some with a sativa though. Maybe I'll make some with fruit punch next week. It's mostly sativa.

 

[KeifKeith]

Sue,
I'm edging up to the 50 posts required to PM you the NF1 info!
I should follow advice and post randomly in various threads, but I'm still fighting that urge to read only!

Since it is Saturday, and I'm still operating in life as if I have to go to work Monday (NOT!), I tried some of the CCO this morning that I made last week for my son. Damn that's potent stuff! I smeared a "some" of it on bread, rolled it up to cover the smeared center, and chugged it with some mango juice. I didn't feel anything for about 90 minutes, and thought I did something wrong in the CCO process. Then, like a freight train ran me over, for the next 4 hours I was trashed. Lesson learned ... heed the warning to titrate and evaluate dosing! Your posts on that matter are explicit and accurate, I was just being a dumbass. The last 2 hours have been awesome, coming down to a comfortable level! At least I know the Oil (it looks like thick petroleum) is not junk! Thanks so much for the CCO making information.

Thanks
Keith

 

[SweetSue]

Reps by proxy, thank you ShiggityFlip and SweetSue.

Thank you.

We have been using indica. We really want to make some with a sativa though. Maybe I'll make some with fruit punch next week. It's mostly sativa.

That sounds delicious. I'd be real tempted to taste the oil on its own with Fruit Punch.

Sue,
I'm edging up to the 50 posts required to PM you the NF1 info!
I should follow advice and post randomly in various threads, but I'm still fighting that urge to read only!

Since it is Saturday, and I'm still operating in life as if I have to go to work Monday (NOT!), I tried some of the CCO this morning that I made last week for my son. Damn that's potent stuff! I smeared a "some" of it on bread, rolled it up to cover the smeared center, and chugged it with some mango juice. I didn't feel anything for about 90 minutes, and thought I did something wrong in the CCO process. Then, like a freight train ran me over, for the next 4 hours I was trashed. Lesson learned ... heed the warning to titrate and evaluate dosing! Your posts on that matter are explicit and accurate, I was just being a dumbass. The last 2 hours have been awesome, coming down to a comfortable level! At least I know the Oil (it looks like thick petroleum) is not junk! Thanks so much for the CCO making information.

Thanks
Keith

I'm glad you're ok Keith, but I admit to chuckling. Thankfully, no harm done. Try making some capsules with lecithin and see how fast it hits the system. Mine hit within 10 minutes and carry at a consistent level for over five hours. It's notable though that Chewey gets almost no effect from the same formula that puts me up where I like to stay. I'm interested in noting as we go along what effects they have on others. I can't try them with my daughter, with her sensitivity to the THC.

Those CBD capsules I made with the olive oil extraction of CBD Critical Cure are proving to be effective for a friend of mine with bi polar disorder. It's a new therapy for her, so I'm watching her. I wasn't sure if they'd help her, but she tells me when she takes one her head clears and calms and she can focus better. She hesitates to take her prescription meds because of the side effects, so these were a godsend for her. Let's see how it goes over time. Bi polar's a tricky disorder. This was the plant I grew, in part to help my husband's brother who has Bi Polar. Since he won't be benefitting from the harvest it's good to know someone else does.

They may also be benefitting my walking buddy, a 73-yr old woman with ADHD.

Again, pretty amazing for a plant our federal government says has no medicinal benefit in the US.

 

[Canyon]

I'm glad you're ok Keith, but I admit to chuckling. Thankfully, no harm done. Try making some capsules with lecithin and see how fast it hits the system. Mine hit within 10 minutes and carry at a consistent level for over five hours. It's notable though that Chewey gets almost no effect from the same formula that puts me up where I like to stay. I'm interested in noting as we go along what effects they have on others. I can't try them with my daughter, with her sensitivity to the THC.

Those CBD capsules I made with the olive oil extraction of CBD Critical Cure are proving to be effective for a friend of mine with bi polar disorder. It's a new therapy for her, so I'm watching her. I wasn't sure if they'd help her, but she tells me when she takes one her head clears and calms and she can focus better. She hesitates to take her prescription meds because of the side effects, so these were a godsend for her. Let's see how it goes over time. Bi polar's a tricky disorder. This was the plant I grew, in part to help my husband's brother who has Bi Polar. Since he won't be benefitting from the harvest it's good to know someone else does.

They may also be benefitting my walking buddy, a 73-yr old woman with ADHD.

Again, pretty amazing for a plant our federal government says has no medicinal benefit in the US.

Sue,

Ok, I am game. Give a while to gather the makings.

I have about a third of a gram of rosin (THC 56.17, CBD 13.84) that I can donate to the cause.

I confess, I have not been paying attention in class. How much of what goes into the brew? And, I thoutht you were eating something about 45 minutes before the meds in the past. Is that correct?

Ingesting cannabis has never gotten me high. That, and a rather high consumption level of cannabis in other forms should be an interesting test.

The coconut oil I can get locally. I need to order the capsules and lecithin (What kind). Anything else that I need? End of the week, first of next, I should be set.

Best