300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

That OCD might be a pain in the ass, but it sure makes for some pretty pictures!

Nice work Sun...

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I seem to remember this as well SS, i think it may have been one of irish's last grows. I think he had quite a few side by side pics.
Ive been following this and looking forward to the first Eyeclops pics. I remember loving them in your last journal as well.

thanks Maccar!

It's a child's toy, so having a child's mind just has to help .

Perfect picture, such a difference and that's only the 180 board!

These 3w GLH panels are very bright and intense. I have my Spectra 360 at 15-17" off the canopy, and both intensity and coverage are *excellent* in my tent. The 90-degree angle is perfect for balancing intensity and coverage.

My previous grow was a trial-run with this light, and I bleached my buds because I had the light down too low, so lack of intensity has not been a problem for me .

I had also wondered about the footprints of the lights, to me it never really made sense to have a rectangular shaped light, when more often than not they would be used in a square environment.

How is it working with the footprint of the LED in a square environment?

And also, how do the footprints compare?
Theoretically, if you had a larger growing area, which light would support more coverage?

A square beam pattern makes sense for a square grow space, but I haven't noticed any "cold spots" in the coverage or a beam that looks directional in any way. Both tents are saturated with light extremely well.

To answer the rest of your questions, I'd need to measure the intensity of the beam on a larger grid outside of the tents, which would be useful info, and which I'm geared up to do, but it will have to wait for now, as I got too much other stuff happening, but it's definitely on the back burner and simmering.

And one final thing, i think you mentioned it briefly before, but i had wondered about the density of the buds themselves, one of the regular complaints about earlier LED lights was "fluff buds", so im just wondering if the buds have a different texture/density to them at this stage?

Mr. Gator once mentioned that he hates seeing people squeeze buds. It makes me wince also.

I'm certain it's because we both "see" that squeeze at a microscopic level, where a whole lot of trich heads are destroyed, but I bit the bullet last night and gave a couple of buds the squeeze.

The LED buds are denser and harder at this point in the grow. At least that was my impression from the two I squeezed. I had to stop at two because I was overcome by angst .

Thanks again man, and i for 1 am very glad you have OCD, i have a strong feeling these journals wouldnt be nearly as good without it!!

curse or gift?

If I had the power to make myself "normal", I wouldn't

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Hope you don't mind my chiming in

moi?

well, since I refrain religiously from chiming in on other people's threads, I do think it's a bit forward, but I'll let it go this time .

If this grow finishes out even close, it moves us in the direction that soon we will no longer be questioning the equivalency of LED to HID, it will just come down to which solution is the best fit to one's needs.

well said!

 

[Propa Gator]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Since I run 400w HID in a one meter tent, I look at your light for a fit.
The 180 should be enough, if they're that good but...
This demo grow is showing me what I ought to know, and equivalence could be enough.

Problem looks like the cost of those fancy purple lights, but what is my price?
How do I assess my time? And the cooling issue will come back around to
piss me off next summer - if I'm lucky

Show us the money, Mr Sun. The heat issue is a very big one.
Equivalent harvest would be sweet, and fewer damn ducts more neat.

Wa_ay more neat

PS(edit) - I took so long to write this, the world changed as I addressed old issues. Excellent posts above, Sir!

 

[CanaHealer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun,
I just want to say thank you for this excellent thread.
What a journal. I don't think that one could learn much more about this comparison run if they were right there in your tents.

I stumbled on 420mag forums just a few weeks ago. I read your entire journal to date this week, and wow. I really enjoyed all of the details, gadget data, great photography, hyper-intellectual science&tech talk, and the friendly banter about miscellaneous oddities. Even the occasional rhyme. lol

Between your superior reporting and the great informative posts by others; I joined these forums primarily so I could post reps here for your AWESOME journal.



P.S. and OF COURSE, I am subscribed for the rest of the ride.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

40 DAYS FLOWERING

THE LED PLANTS

THE HID PLANTS

2-3 weeks to go until they finish according to Nirvana Seeds, so things are looking pretty good.

I'm very tempted to give them a bloom booster, but then I would sacrifice knowing how the CRF nutes work by themselves, which is important to me.

A minor conundrum, relatively speaking.

If I notice the buds slowing down though, I dunno, research may have to take a back seat .

I should have Mrs. Sun hide the bloom boosters until the grow's over .

As far as comparing the two groups, the LED plants seem to be pulling farther away as regards bud size, density and resin production.

If I didn't have the LED plants for comparison, I'd be pretty happy with the HID plants. They're doing well, but they're not looking as sexy as the girls next door .

Not sure exactly when the next update will be.

We got lots of peeps coming over for turkey day, so Mrs. Sun has said in no unclear terms that I need to focus my OCD in her direction for the next few days .



!!!

 

[Two Tokes]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Once again thanks for the wonderful pictures!

I give the visual edge to the LED plants but would happily smoke either.

We got lots of peeps coming over for turkey day, so Mrs. Sun has said in no unclear terms that I need to focus my OCD in her direction for the next few days .

!!!

I'm sure it has its rewards.

 

[Velodrone]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

As far as comparing the two groups, the LED plants seem to be pulling farther away as regards bud size, density and resin production.

If I didn't have the LED plants for comparison, I'd be pretty happy with the HID plants. They're doing well, but they're not looking as sexy as the girls next door .

That is a strong enough statement to make me consider acquiring some L.E.D. lights. They look great brother. I look forward to future updates! Keep up the good work!

 

[OldMedMan]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Hi Sun!

See your still doing wonderful things with the garden.

Seems the LED is showing it worth. Will wait to the end and see the results and then we'll know for sure. Great grow as per your usual.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

That is a strong enough statement to make me consider acquiring some L.E.D. lights. They look great brother. I look forward to future updates! Keep up the good work!

Hi Sun!

See your still doing wonderful things with the garden.

Seems the LED is showing it worth. Will wait to the end and see the results and then we'll know for sure. Great grow as per your usual.

thanks bros!

that was a strong statement because I like what I'm seeing in the LED tent, but as OMM mentions, we won't know the results for certain until the grow is over.

I get tired of saying "at this point in time" after every observation and comparison, but that's the only point in time I can address, because I don't have a crystal ball.

There's a lot of variables at play with two lights as different as these, so it's conceivable that things could change.

I agree with OMM that it would be a good idea to wait until the end of the grow before coming to a firm conclusion.

thanks again for your support brothers

 

[dogsnova]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Since I run 400w HID in a one meter tent, I look at your light for a fit.
The 180 should be enough, if they're that good but...
This demo grow is showing me what I ought to know, and equivalence could be enough.

Propa IMO the 180w won't quite replace your 400w in a 3 meter tent, but the 360w spectra definitely will...

Absolutely the price is the issue here... If/when the 360w spectra is priced at $599 IMO the land fills will be full of 400w HID lights... Not sure when the price will come down to that point... But that's the price point I see as the tipping point for these led units in the market place...

The problem is when these lights are priced at $599.. There will be much better led lights on the market that will still cost $1,000.. It will be aprox 10 years until the tech peaks IMO...

 

[PetFlora]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Yes and yes. That would be telling. There are others, soon to be filled.

It's a desiccation jar, normally used with silicone desiccant, but I'm simple and cheap [so is rice.] Think lab glass, seek and yea shall find.

b

Great idea. Hmmmm, wonder how that rice cooks up

 

[Barry Manilow]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Looking great SS! How much is that LED light you're using selling for right now?

Thanks again for all your work....

 

[astroastro]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

SUN- to say the plants look fantastic is an understatement. The LED side is showing the potential that this technology has in store for horticultural applications. The unit you have there on test is obviously doing something right. I do have a few comments from the quote below- you did say "Or we coud discuss them here".

This is copied from GLH's website as regards the spectrum:


So, how does the Spectra LED light spectrum grow light work?

In a nutshell it is a series of 9 different colored 3 watt LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes) that emit 12 wavelengths of light in all visible colors of the light spectrum.....


....Or, we could also discuss them here


I understand customers wanting to know the exact spectrum of the light they are purchasing, and I also can appreciate the vendor not wanting to reveal the exact formula to their success, especially in an industry where knockoffs abound.

I can respect both of those desires.

OK- I will get the venting over with early. Like '1234a5678b', I too would be interested
in seeing the spectral output of the light- I don't think we are advancing the conversation of what works and what doesn't within the community if we don't know what we are talking about, ESPECIALLY WITH LED TECHNOLOGY- but I totally respect your decision or the MFR's not to disclose. I understand the state of product development- there are a few that actually 'develop' and whole bunch of parasite fucks that copy. In America it is ALL about cheap-cheap-cheap and not about innovation, quality, or brand loyalty- the justification to invest the development money and then later try and recoup it is difficult when your product is practically knocked off at a cut rate price before you are even able to get it out the door. So I understand, I do- it is just that this is what you are really paying for and even the HID guys will give you a spectral emission chart, and it's not like your going to able to patent a portion of the EM spectrum anymore than you can patent water or pussy ( I tried- damn those patent people, no sense of humor!).

OK- I am going to rag a little, but just a bit, becuase statements like these are going to be confusing and misleading to the customer-

In a nutshell it is a series of 9 different colored 3 watt LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes) that emit 12 wavelengths of light in all visible colors of the light spectrum.

It is a physical impossibility to get 12 different peak wavelengths from 9 different 'colored' LED dies- each die will have a characteristic peak wavelength, which is what we are concerned with. OK- there may be more in the paragraph that I take issue with but I have had my say on that one and will leave it at that.

Here is the deal that I really want to talk about and I can see that there are a lot of other people that want to educate themselves about this LED stuff. I am afraid we are heading down the same techno babble rat hole that find ourselves in with HID technology and the 'lumen'- however with LED I can see the new confusing term is the Watt. With HID and CFL they throw around the terms 'lumen' and 'color temperature' like thay have any bearing at all on the quality of light being generated with regards to the photosynthetic process, when in fact, they don't. I could design a light source 30 different ways from Sunday and adjust the 'lumens' or 'color temperature' around to whatever you want it to be- it does not necesarily mean the light will be any better or worse source of photosynthetically active light. For all practical purposes, PAR is about a useless term as well.

OK, so anyway, now we are on the new LED technology, and the buzz terms are "3W LED's" or "1W LED's"- trust me, believe me- we are heading down a terminology rat hole which is not going to tell us a damn thing about the quality of the light (wavelength/ amplitude), how well the light performs, or the actual radiant output power of the light (what you are actually paying for- photons). First off- the term "1W LED" is loosely used in the LED industry to describe an LED which is approximately 1mm^2. This is the size of the dies at the current state of mass production which offer peak efficiency in output and the best yield off the wafers. Yes- you can make the dies bigger, but efficiency/ yield suffers. You can make them smaller and gazillions of these are obviously available, but again, efficiency suffers. Why is it referred to as a "1W LED"- because all the test data is generated with 350mA drive current- that times the Vf of the device yeilds approx. 1W. Thermal management issues become extremely tricky when current density through the die is increased above this level- none-the-less, enter the so called "3W LED"- this is your same good old friend Mr. 1W LED driven with 1 amp of current instead of 350mA. IT IS THE SAME 1MM^2 DEVICE. Again- thermal issues must be addressed when doing this to an LED- I am skeptical about large chunks of aluminum and banks of fans- but whatever, that is just me. Also- true, high quality 1W LED dies from respectable MFR's, i.e. Cree or Bridgelux, are not available to cover the entire visible spectrum- that is just a fact.

Now the situation with LED's gets even more effed up and confusing because not all 1mm^2, 1W dies are the same- not by a long shot- not even within the parts of the same manufactruer. The difference between red and blue LED dies is in process and materials, and the best of the red dies have <maybe> 1/3 the radiant output power as the best of the blue. Add to this that LED dies are incredibly inconsistant coming off the wafers in fabrication- they have to be binned according to radiant output power (among other things)- with LED there is simply no way to know what you are buying unless the fixture manufacturer gives you a spectral emission chart. I think every LED vendor should include this as a matter of course.

OK- so there you have it- there is my gripe- thanks for your patience. I have a portable spectroradiometer around here somewhere- I don't think the panelized LED's would work well in the integration sphere- it would fit in my largets integration sphere, but the dtector head is not set up for that large a light source. If I can dig it up, and if it still works, maybe we can get some shots off these LED units and see what we are really looking at, if anyone is interested. Except right now I am stuck in jack-boot BFE Texas, yeehaw.

 

[GrowLEDHydro]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

For those of you who have a interest in my 'Spectrum output' of my Spectra LED™ panels well its not going to happen at least right now. Once my attorney and patent lawyer give me the ok which will be after the first of the year I will have no problem sharing it.

As we speak my Spectra LED™ panels are in a light laboratory being tested so I will be able to give a accurate description of my light with the documentation to back it up. The information I am getting will show graphs and other statistics anyone would need to make a better educated decision on whether or not they would consider using my panels.

To give you guys a round about idea of whats going on at this point in time is this:

Wavelengths,

UV,BL,BL,BL,BL, WIGHT (3 WAVELENGTHS R,B,G), RD,RD,RD,RD,RD,IR

As you can see I did not include the exact percentages or actual wavelengths but this will give you a idea of how the wavelengths are setup.

Another thing I have kept secret is my Support Band Technology™ but now that its trade marked and going into the patent of my design I guess its ok to share with you all even though I guarantee that within a couple of weeks there will be a company trying to copy this, but its ok I have a good lawyer and the cool little TM next to it.

Anyway the way the support band technology works is such:

For every peak wavelength for example I use 667nm in my light (there's one wavelength for you guys ) which is in the red spectrum I use two supporting bands, one wavelength just below the peak and one wavelength just above the peak. This Support Band Technology™ is applied to all the wavelengths in my light but the UV,WHITE and IR.

Now I now this information is not anything special especially to you tech heads but let me say this, I had to spend so much money and time to figure out the correct configuration in wavelengths and percentages of each plus what chips to use and at what power. Now if you tech heads really want to know what makes my Spectra LED™ work well spend the time and money and find out for yourself or wait till I am ready to release it. My light works and works better than anyone else has been able to prove with any other company, that's all that needs to be said at this point.

Thank you.

SS the grow is going awesome the plants are beautiful on both sides. I am really happy you agreed to do this, I wouldn't want it any other way. Thanks! I would also like to thank everyone following this thread and adding to the already great information we have, thank you!

 

[Barry Manilow]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Awesome thread.

 

[1234a5678b]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

For those of you who have a interest in my 'Spectrum output' of my Spectra LED panels well its not going to happen at least right now. Once my attorney and patent lawyer give me the ok which will be after the first of the year I will have no problem sharing it.

As we speak my Spectra LED panels are in a light laboratory being tested so I will be able to give a accurate description of my light with the documentation to back it up. The information I am getting will show graphs and other statistics anyone would need to make a better educated decision on whether or not they would consider using my panels.

To give you guys a round about idea of whats going on at this point in time is this:

Wavelengths,

UV,BL,BL,BL,BL, WIGHT (3 WAVELENGTHS R,B,G), RD,RD,RD,RD,RD,IR

As you can see I did not include the exact percentages or actual wavelengths but this will give you a idea of how the wavelengths are setup.

Another thing I have kept secret is my Support Band Technology but now that its trade marked and going into the patent of my design I guess its ok to share with you all even though I guarantee that within a couple of weeks there will be a company trying to copy this, but its ok I have a good lawyer and the cool little TM next to it.

Anyway the way the support band technology works is such:

For every peak wavelength for example I use 667nm in my light (there's one wavelength for you guys ) which is in the red spectrum I use two supporting bands, one wavelength just below the peak and one wavelength just above the peak. This Support Band Technology is applied to all the wavelengths in my light but the UV,WHITE and IR.

Now I now this information is not anything special especially to you tech heads but let me say this, I had to spend so much money and time to figure out the correct configuration in wavelengths and percentages of each plus what chips to use and at what power. Now if you tech heads really want to know what makes my Spectra LED work well spend the time and money and find out for yourself or wait till I am ready to release it. My light works and works better than anyone else has been able to prove with any other company, that's all that needs to be said at this point.

Thank you.

SS the grow is going awesome the plants are beautiful on both sides. I am really happy you agreed to do this, I wouldn't want it any other way. Thanks! I would also like to thank everyone following this thread and adding to the already great information we have, thank you!

Thanks,
While not as detailed as I would have liked, it did give some insight to your methodology. These look useful for summer grows, or small personal grows.

 

[dogsnova]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Spectra LED

I've been waiting to see that little 'TM' symbol.... Nice... I knew it was only a matter of time.. Smart move Mike..

 

[astroastro]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

For those of you who have a interest in my 'Spectrum output' of my Spectra LED™ panels well its not going to happen at least right now. Once my attorney and patent lawyer give me the ok which will be after the first of the year I will have no problem sharing it.

Thanks for the info- look forward to more detailed data sheets in the future. I am not trying to poke you in the eye- really. It is just that knowing what I know about LED's, terms like the total fixture wattage, "1W LED", and "3W LED" tell me absolutely nothing about the quality of the light output, which can only be described in terms of wavelength and amplitude.

 

[Propa Gator]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

OK- I will get the venting over with early. Like '1234a5678b', I too would be interested in seeing the spectral output of the light- I don't think we are advancing the conversation of what works and what doesn't within the community if we don't know what we are talking about, ESPECIALLY WITH LED TECHNOLOGY- but I totally respect your decision or the MFR's not to disclose. I understand the state of product development- there are a few that actually 'develop' and whole bunch of parasite fucks that copy.

So many mysteries, so little time
All I really want to know anymore is: Does it work well?
Oh, yeah. Give me mine!

No cool-off before restarting, less excess heat to chill.
No rattles when they're shaken, and lower electric bills.
They seem at first to cost a lot, but few good things are free.
We're shown increased production, high tech is simplicity