600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Irie

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

This may be a stupid question...but, do you think the LED girls need a little less watering because of the lower temp under the bulb and around the plants?

I've heard this said by a few people that noted tent temperatures were lower with LED.

Not sure about how it is with the higher powered LED's like this 600 here

 

[PitViper]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

I've heard this said by a few people that noted tent temperatures were lower with LED.

Not sure about how it is with the higher powered LED's like this 600 here

the 600 is HOT....in a tent...almost as bad as a 600 HID without air cooling

 

[ConqueringLOJ]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

I've heard this said by a few people that noted tent temperatures were lower with LED.

Not sure about how it is with the higher powered LED's like this 600 here

the 600 is HOT....in a tent...almost as bad as a 600 HID without air cooling

ok, thanks guys...good to know.
I've been contemplating going to LED...they sound like great lights, in theory. BUT, I'm finding it hard to justify the cost if they are using the same amount of electricity, and emit similar heat to the HIDs.
I'm really interested to see the results of this experiment. I'm sure I'll have lots more questions along the way!

Thanks guys!!

 

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Depends on how many plants you're looking to grow in my opinion.

.8 to 1.2 grams a watt from a relative low powered light like a 180 watt is a great personal sized supply and $400ish isn't much when you consider the spread over multiple grows without loss of light intensity or need for bulb replacement.

I really think LEDs are killer options for the closet grower looking to control the quality and availability of his personal medication needs. I would agree that the barrier to entry for multiple large scale lights is high, (i.e. the caregiver with multiple patients).

 

[420]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Looking forward to the photos.

 

[Be Irie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Ok, snapped a few pics off before I left today.... I have a good friend that is watching over the ladies for the next few weeks for me while I hang out at the beach. The heat has been a bitch!!! I am still trying to save one of the Flav's, the rest are looking better... The extra A/C didn't quite drop the temp to what I had hoped for and the temp is now staying in the low 80's with spikes into the mid 80's. I am still cycling the lights in the hot afternoons here. The plants are being watered one day and then misted on the next day. The HPS are drinking almost everyday and the LED's are about every other day.

SnoCap and Satori Green toothpick = LED Yellow= HPS

3rd dimension and Chernobyl

The HPS SnoCap is doing exactly what her mom did, stretch... Mom is close to six feet and still in veg... I will have to top or start training the HPS snocap here soon.

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Can't wait to see this one Be IRIE!

 

[Be Irie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Me either!!!!! I have been in So. Cal for a week and am not sure what is happening back in Co. My friend has his hands full taking care of the projects, so not only no updates, but haven't talked to him in a bit... I am not sure when I am going to be back in Co. but will update as soon as I see or hear anything.
The snoCap mom was about 6 ft when I left, she and all of her daughters are stretching no matter what I do. The LED snocap is the only one that is not stretching for the lights. I am interested to see what she looks like when I get back. Almost time for an IRIE run to the beach...

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Tuned in.

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

About LED's and heat- if you believe the maxim that all energy is ultimately dissipated as heat, you will understand that 600W (or whatever) of LED will dump the same amount of heat energy in an enclosed space as 600W of HID. LED heat is primarily conducted through the die backside, while HID heat is both conducted and radiated IR- the heat you can feel when you stick you hand under the light. HID magnetic ballasts are less efficient than a properly designed LED driver, so it could be said that overall watt-for-watt an HID system will output more heat. If using an 'electronic' HID ballast, again, if properly designed, will pretty much even the playing field with an LED driver, as the priciples of power delivery are largely the same. A much larger percentage of the light delivered by LED is absorbable by the plant, so it could be said that at least some of the efficiency gains afforded by LED is in the relative amount of energy output by the LED is stored in the plant as chemical energy, as opposed to the very large portion of HID light that is not used by the plant at all, and subsequently shows up in the room as heat - the energy HAS to go somewhere.

Lots and lots of poorly researched, misleading information out there, and with the marketing materials provided by the LED vendors, it is no wonder why. Lots and lots of problems of trying to make an LED fixture perform in a horticultural application- many of which are due to the limitations of the technology at this maturation point. All kinds of misinformation about 3W dies and 5W dies and the wavelengths actually used by the photosynthetic machinery of the plant. The list goes on and on. The LED vendors would be doing themselves a favor by publishing the output of their lights- then all this testing that is going on could be cross validated vs. the applied spectrum and we could actually make some sense of it all and then the community could begin to draw proper conclusions about what works best. Even the HID guys will provide this info to you.

 

[Munki]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Electrical energy does not necessarily go to heat. The energy can be used for many things like mechanical energy, sonic energy and photonic energy to name a few. I agree that in the Universe, all energy will eventually get converted to low level and highly dispersed heat, but that does not necessarily occur in the closet or tent. Consider that the photons from the light are converted again into chemical bonds that combine CO2 into glucose and that in turn is converted into phosphate bonds in Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP). That energetic bond is what drives all life including the building of living structures like wood. Wood can then later be harvested and chemically combined with oxygen to release energy including heat, light (photonic), sound (sonic), etc.

Sorry if this rambled a bit, but if lighting is efficient, then only a small amount of the electrical energy driving the lighting equipment will dissipate as heat.

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Hey Munki- ok, I agree with you. However I would say, in my defense, that if the energy does not escape the tent in the form of a light leak or heat exchange, it will be converted into either (1) chemical energy within the plant [as we both noted in our messages], or (2) heat in the grow space. I believe this statement is in full compliance with the law of conservation of energy. To say otherwise would involve an explanation of what other transformational state this energy takes prior to being disspated as heat- I can think of none.

So what I really wanted to talk about was the challenges involved in bringing an LED lighting system to the horticultural field, at the current state of LED semiconductor evolution. I think that many of the problems associated with the LED fixtures on the market are because of insufficient bandwidth coverage (not necessarily, but maybe compunded with, insufficient flux density (intensity)) which has lead to:

(1) under the best case scenario where at least some of the bandwidth requirements of the photosynthetic machinery are being satisfied, an imbalance in the charge transfer states (perhaps 'synergy' is a better term) between LHC1 and LHC2, or
(2) cases where, for example, LED's intended for traffic lights or automotive brake lights are used in the fixture, and almost none of the plant's photonic requirements are being satisfied, and which leads to just plain A$$ crappy results.

From a pure enginering standpoint, we have a metal core organic molecule (i.e. CLa or b) which is tuned for response to a specific wavelength, AND we have the most highly controllable, narrow bandwidth commercial light source ever invented by man, the LED, AND BINGO- match made in heaven. So why the disappointing results?

As I am now an old man, I have designed literally hundreds of millions of LED's into consumer products- albeit, in the interest of full disclosure, the vast majority of these have been the low power indicator/ display type devices. I am sitting in China now with some time on my hands. If anyone out has a question on LED's or LED technology that I can answer, let me know. If I don't know the answer I will tell you straight up.

 

[falcore]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

do you think that leds might end up having a separate ballast the way that hids do? in order to keep the heat down in a grow space. would this be possible for leds?

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Nice plants, Irie. Hope things are ok where you are. Look forward to seeing you back safe and sound soon!

Hey Munki- ok, I agree with you...

So what I really wanted to talk about was the challenges involved in bringing an LED lighting system to the horticultural field, at the current state of LED semiconductor evolution. I think that many of the problems associated with the LED fixtures on the market are because of insufficient bandwidth coverage (not necessarily, but maybe compunded with, insufficient flux density (intensity)) which has lead to...

If anyone out has a question on LED's or LED technology that I can answer, let me know. If I don't know the answer I will tell you straight up.

Nice to see you and Munki coming together on something, Astro^2. Did a little thread catch-up earlier and agree with some of your earlier statements in irishboy's thread. (You're also more...tactful...or should I say, polite (you Canadian?), than some folks. Not a bad trait overall...) Glad to see you coming out of the woodwork for some of the new ones.

Feel free to weigh in next door at Setting Sun's thread, also. I'm sure he'd appreciate your expertise along with the rest of us.

Cheers,

-TL

P.S. Spent the last few years living and traveling around Asia. The food ain't quite the same back here, and darned if you can find a Bubble Tea vendor anywhere...not to mention the women...

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

do you think that leds might end up having a separate ballast the way that hids do? in order to keep the heat down in a grow space. would this be possible for leds?

Yo, Falcore- great question. LED's do not have 'ballasts', they have 'drivers'. For the average user this is a matter of semantics- both LED's and HID require some form of power control/ conversion provided by a device external to the light producing element itself. The LED ad's you see that say 'requires no ballast' (or something to that effect) are misleading.

The LED driver could in fact be remotely mounted and there would be several advantages to this, including the reduction on grow space thermal load as you so correctly point out, as well as a few disadvantages- I can summarize below-

Advantages-
1. The heat produced as a result of AC power conversion to what the LED likes (typically a voltage clamped constant current DC source- the LED driver) could be totally external to the grow space all together.
1.1 The energy consumed in then trying to remove this heat with either air con or ventillation, 12 or 18 hours a day worth, could be forgotten, along with the electrical bill.
1.1.1 This may not be much heat- but it all adds up, particularily in the summer months, and your plants will like you for it.

2. One of the large advantages of LED's, one that is not particularily hyped by the current batch of LED vendors, is the inherent safety advantages available with a properly designed LED fixture for horticultural use. I think this is probably beause a lot of the current LED iterations are not designed with this in mind, just low cost.
2.1 If the drivers were remotely mounted from the fixture, you would be feeding isolated, low voltage DC to the LED fixture.
2.1.1 Wall AC would, of course, have to be provided to the drivers- but the dangers of electrical shock by the User and/ or fire if the fixture should, for whatever reason, fall from its mounting into, say, hydroponic or bubbler solution, would be GREATLY reduced.
2.1.2 Nobody thinks about these issues until they return home from the ball game to find the fire department and the police at their house- I guess if you are growing tomatoes you get good wishes from local law enforcement and they move on, if you are growing something else, maybe not so much.
2.2 The point here would be that there would be a number of advantages to a remotely mounted driver- besides the thermal issue, the fact is that LED systems can be designed which are orders of magnitude safer for the User and the property than current HID technology.

Disadvantages
1. Cost- it would cost more to design the system this way, for a number of reasons which would make this post longer and it is already longer than I intended.

2. There are constraints related to DC resistive losses in the power feed cable from the driver to the LED fixture which would limit the practical distance to which the driver and fixture could be separated.
2.1 If your looking at 20 feet or something to run the cable thru a small hole drilled in the wall so that the driver and grow space are in separate rooms- this should be no problem in a properly designed system with compensation for these losses.


Your very clever observation about separating the driver from the LED leads to a whole host of thermal issues related to LED technology that are not being well served by the current class of LED fixtures I have seen advertised. Another day perhaps.

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Great posts astroastro!

The whole purpose of our consumer reports division is to give our members and community unbiased information to cut through the marketing hype. You and Munki are doing a great service to us all by sharing your most informative discussion.

 

[SnowBender]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Sure would like to see remote LED drivers that can control multiple panels at once.

To have my whole indoor grow be 12v, or at least DC at a fairly low voltage, would be a dream.

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Sure would like to see remote LED drivers that can control multiple panels at once.

To have my whole indoor grow be 12v, or at least DC at a fairly low voltage, would be a dream.

Oh, now that's a great idea- imagine running multiple LED panels, say 2000W worth, off multiple externally mounted driver panels, using multiple house AC circuits to handle the load, with a lone, simple low voltage (12VDC) timer of some sort so the lights are all perfectly synched up. Add to it everything communicating with each other over an extended I^2C network (or some other standard multi-drop communication bus network)- something like that. A dream!!!!

LED's are inherently low voltage devices, but it depends upon the quantity of LED's in the series, as a multiple of their Vf, as to the actual drive voltage required in the design. LED fixtures can be designed to be very safe- thermal monitoring with current fold-back in the case of thermal extremes, isolated drive voltages, etc. I am not sure if the curent crop of LED fixtures include these features.

 

[DrDan]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

Great information Astro, + reps for sharing your knowledge/experience with the community. I am still waiting for manufacturerers to get it together and actually produce a fixture that does what they report it to do. It has been a long wait, and a hot one due to the HIDs I currently use. I have made an improvement in the heat dept. in my veg room which has just been converted to 100% T-5 HO lighting. Mid summer temps in there are no higher than 81 degrees with only an exhaust/inlet setup, no A/C needed. Definitely subscribing to this one!

 

[Be Irie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro's 600W LED vs. 600W HPS by Be Iri

I thank and encourage you guys to keep sharing as much info as we can on the LED lights. I am still in San Diego and have not seen the garden in 10 days!!!! This has been the longest I have been gone from it in over five years... It is starting to stress me out a bit.. It looks like I will be back to Colorado on Tuesday.. I can't wait to get out of the Rat Race of southern Cal.... Thanks to everyone for all the good vibes and all the info sharing... Hope everyone's weekend was safe and to the all of you.....