5th or 6th week from the flip issues

[Ramblinrose1965]

High all,
So every grow around the 5th or 6th week of flower I get this issue....

I have been using geoflora bloom nutes, terpenator and massive bloom supplements as per the manufacturers directions.
Daytime temps are 80° with humidity about 50%. Nighttime temps are about 70°.
Soil is FFOF.
Water is bubbled for 24 to 48 hrs and PhD to approx 6.5.
Calmag (5ml/ gal) has been added each watering about every 3 days sometimes 4 days.
Issue started on older fan leaves and is creeping up towards the buds.
Here's another pic

Thanks all

 

[Lady Cannafan]

High all,
So every grow around the 5th or 6th week of flower I get this issue....

I have been using geoflora bloom nutes, terpenator and massive bloom supplements as per the manufacturers directions.
Daytime temps are 80° with humidity about 50%. Nighttime temps are about 70°.
Soil is FFOF.
Water is bubbled for 24 to 48 hrs and PhD to approx 6.5.
Calmag (5ml/ gal) has been added each watering about every 3 days sometimes 4 days.
Issue started on older fan leaves and is creeping up towards the buds.
Here's another pic

Thanks all

During later stages of flowering it is normal for some of the leaves to start to yellow.

Is this from the bottom up, more toward the older leaves?
I'm not a good authority on leaf issues, I haven't dealt with enough to diagnose.

Maybe @InTheShed , or @Bill284 can help more.

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

During later stages of flowering it is normal for some of the leaves to start to yellow.

This isn't from the bottom up, it's more toward the older top leaves?
I'm not a good authority on leaf issues, I haven't dealt with enough to diagnose.

Maybe @InTheShed , or @Bill284 can help more.

Thank you Lady Cannafan. I appreciate your help and tagging the experts.

 

[InTheShed]

I'm definitely not an expert (I'm well known for my yellow lower leaves in flower!) but it can be tough to diagnose when using both top-dressed and water soluble nutes. Also, those leaves don't look to bad to me and could be natural senescence as you get to late flower. And there are only about 3 looking that way.

Do you have any pics of what it looks like at the beginning of the process?

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

Thanks shed for taking the time to look into this. There are not a lot of leaves doing this but it seems to be spreading upwards towards the buds.
I realize that late flower this is bound to happen but I flipped the girls on April fools day so about 5 weeks since the flip. Here are some pics.....

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks RR! They don't have a classic X-deficiency/toxicity look to me. They seem to start with purple between the veins and then some burn on the edges from what I can tell in the pics. Burning edges can be a K deficiency but between the GF Bloom, Terp, and Massive Bloom I'm guessing your K is covered. Also purple leaves is more of a senescence color than any nutrient issues. Purple stems/petioles would be a different issue.

 

[Sativa1970]

Looks like you have 3-5-9, cal/mag, micros and amino acids. lower older leaves yellowing can be N,P,K , or mag deficiency. With what you listed it looks like it is stripping the N from old growth to feed sugar leaf growth. If it is dyeing out too early give it a bump of N or just let it strip nutrients into harvest.

 

[bluter]

geo is water in. you have to be a wk to 2 ahead of the plant using it. if it looks good you add more next sort of thing. it's a bitch if you get behind.

 

[SmokingWings]

A yellowing color starting with the lower and older fan leaves and then slowly moving up to the next leaf and so on is a classic sign of the plant pulling Nitrogen from them and moving it to the flower buds. If it takes 5 to 6 weeks for it to be enough to concern you it is not that bad of a situation. At least as compared to those who start to become worried at two to three weeks into flowering when their plants look even yellower than yours.

So, if it is happening every grow you could try bumping up the Nitrogen about 2-3 weeks before the plant(s) start flowering. That gives them a chance to absorb some extra and store it in the fan leaves and the more that is stored the longer it will take to translocate enough that the leaf starts to show a deficiency. I start adding some of the flowering fertilizers at the same time to help slow down the increase in the reddish or purple colors.

Once the change in the colors of the fan leaves starts it seems like it is next to impossible to stop it even when adding a source of Nitrogen. However, adding a water soluble Nitrogen source does seem to slow down the change.

The longer the leaves can stay green the longer and the more photosynthesis that is taking place which increases the ability of the plant to grow more and larger buds.

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

I continued the veg nutes until the stretch was about over but maybe I should have continued the veg nutes a little longer. I'll get this weed thing down one of these grows. Any way thanks for your help. You and all the experienced growers here on 420 magazine are the best for sharing your knowledge to us new growers.

 

[Wastei]

To much sauce! Two PK boosters on top of a already balanced plant food will most often result in low pH in the medium. They're mostly MPK(mono potassium phosphate)based with and inherent pH of 4.5.

You need to add back pH buffers like Ca/Mg solution "Calmag" or pH compensate in late flower growing in peat based soil mixes like FFOF or promix. Bloom PK boosters do next to nothing positive in containers in terms of quality in yield. They only cause lockouts, low pH and potency if overused.

You only need a balanced plant food from start to finish and less is in most cases more growing Cannabis. Most people start out believing more is always better when less is actually more in terms of optimal plant nutrition. Always aim for the lowest optimal.

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

To much sauce! Two PK boosters on top of a already balanced plant food will most often result in low pH in the medium. They're mostly MPK(mono potassium phosphate)based with and inherent pH of 4.5.

You need to add back pH buffers like Ca/Mg solution "Calmag" or pH compensate in late flower growing in peat based soil mixes like FFOF or promix. Bloom PK boosters do next to nothing positive in containers in terms of quality in yield. They only cause lockouts, low pH and potency if overused.

You only need a balanced plant food from start to finish and less is in most cases more growing Cannabis. Most people start out believing more is always better when less is actually more in terms of optimal plant nutrition. Always aim for the lowest optimal.

Thanks Wastei,
Do you think I should add calmag with every watering? My tap water has very low ppm. It's about 100 ppm out of the faucet. And thank you for the explanation.

 

[Sativa1970]

I have use several of the bud snake oils over the years on side by side clones. Never found one that made any positive improvements to the plant. Roots can not absorb any sugar you could feed it. Even if you found a source of monosaccharide glucose it won't effect the bud on a healthy plant. The effect on the plant is placebo but effect on wallet is real. Macro, micro and amino acids are all your plant can absorb. I agree with Wastei, less is better than more on macro. You really can't OD micro like cal/mag without serious effort. You can add micro nutes to every water but definitely add them with every feed if your tap water omits them.

If it is still stretching and growing sugar leaves, it is still using nitrogen. If there is not enough at the roots it takes it from the older leaves.

 

[SmokingWings]

I continued the veg nutes until the stretch was about over but maybe I should have continued the veg nutes a little longer. I'll get this weed thing down one of these grows.

I am not sure that using the vegetating stage fertilizers past the start of flowering is best. It kinda depends on the NPK ratios. Part of the problem, if we really want to call it a problem, is that these plants are being grown inside under lights and not the sun. They are being grown in a limited amount of soil, often 3 gallons (12 liters) to 5 gallons (20 liters), instead of their lateral roots being able to spread for 10-15 feet or more in every direction looking for the water and nutrients the plant needs.

It is very possible that going past the start of flowering and still using a vegetating formula (the NPK numbers) can limit the amounts and quality of the buds and trichomes. I had started using Roots Organic Elemental (a Cal-Mag product) and eventually switched over from Fox Farm to the basic Roots Organic Terp Tea Grow (7-1-1) and Terp Tea Bloom (3-7-4) products. It gave me the liberty to experiment and yet be able to go back to the Terp Tea schedules and get my plants back on track if need be.

I start fertilizing with the Terp Tea Grow when the plants are finally in a container holding about 2 and 1/2 gallons of soil. Dose is top dressing with 1 teaspoon per gallon of soil. As the plant gets larger and is transplanted to a larger container the ratio of Terp Tea to soil keeps on track. Once I see an opening coming up in the flowering tent I start to select a vegetating plant to fill that gap. Two weeks before it will go to flowering lights and schedule the plant is in 3.5 to 4 gallons of soil and I substitute half of the Grow with the Bloom.

Doing that and there is a slight drop in my Nitrogen levels but at the same time it introduces the Phosphorous and Potassium. Over the next two weeks the top dressing powder is being eaten and processed by the soil micro-organisms. The plant will start to use the P and K within 5 to 7 days after it is moved since it is already there waiting in the soil.

I continue to feed the flowering plant with Terp Tea Bloom but there is one substitution. About half way through the flowering stage I will either make a substitution to the Bloom dose by using only half and putting in the missing Grow that was left out back when the plant was two weeks away from the flowering tent. I have also tried keeping the Bloom at the regular dose and getting my Nitrogen back by using a Liquid Fish product, either a 3-1-1 or a 5-1-1. Then a week or so after that I will water with a Liquid Seaweed (0-0-17).

 

[SmokingWings]

I have use several of the bud snake oils over the years on side by side clones. Never found one that made any positive improvements to the plant.

I have tried the same with similar results, nothing positive. Tried some of the mega-dose "finishers" with high numbers for Phosphorous and/or Potassium with nothing to show for the time and money.

Roots can not absorb any sugar you could feed it.

If you are talking about the use of Molasses it is not that the plant uses the sugars in the stuff. Instead it is that the microbes will eat the sugar and start to reproduce at fast rates. They then digest and convert the organic materials in the soil making the resulting nutrients available in a form that the plant can absorb and use.

When the sugars from Molasses products is used up the population of microbes crashes and everything is back to where it was.

If it is still stretching and growing sugar leaves, it is still using nitrogen. If there is not enough at the roots it takes it from the older leaves.

Yep. The plants are growing and maintaining sugar leaves pretty much right up to the last day. Not only are the sugar leaves green but so are the other parts of the flower buds. And these plant parts are green because of the chlorophyll that they contain.

Nitrogen is necessary for the existence of chlorophyll.
Chlorophyll is necessary for photosynthesis to take place.
Photosynthesis is necessary for the production of the sucrose molecules that plants need to make use of the macro, micro and other nutrients that plants absorb.

 

[InTheShed]

I continued the veg nutes until the stretch was about over but maybe I should have continued the veg nutes a little longer. I'll get this weed thing down one of these grows. Any way thanks for your help. You and all the experienced growers here on 420 magazine are the best for sharing your knowledge to us new growers.

I'm just curious as to whether your are seeing bottom-up yellowing, since you didn't post any head on pics of the full plant. Nitrogen deficiency starts with the very lowest leaves (pic below) rather than in the middle as it appears in the pics you posted.

 

[Sativa1970]

When the sugars from Molasses products is used up the population of microbes crashes and everything is back to where it was.

Adding sugars to soil explodes the microbe population, wringing out any raw nutrients in the soil. The crash is them starving because the soil is depleted of raw minerals. The claims it makes the buds sweeter,, that's not how bio chemistry works. Imagine a bat guano flavored bud. The bigger issue is that, most state that they are for hydroponic use. Without living soil you are just feeding the bad bacteria.

The plant is the only one who knows how much nitrogen is the right amount. Dark green claws, too much. Yellow with brown tips on the lower leaves, not enough. One or two pale green yellowing lower leaves she is good.

 

[InTheShed]

Imagine a bat guano flavored bud.

LOL!

 

[AgedMaster]

This happened to me once I upped my feed and it sorted it I use complete nutrients though. I agree with sativa needs more N

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

I'm just curious as to whether your are seeing bottom-up yellowing, since you didn't post any head on pics of the full plant. Nitrogen deficiency starts with the very lowest leaves (pic below) rather than in the middle as it appears in the pics you posted.

Here is a side shot of the ladies. Issue seems to be getting worse today.