PeeJay's Perpetual Organic Homebrewed Soil - Stealth Cabinet And Greenhouse Grow

[PeeJay]

Spores are very durable. For more information look for stuff about "burn area mitigation." When a forest fire burns very hot it will completely sterilize the soil. Myco inoculants are part of the reforestation protocol because the extreme heat destroys the spores. Things have to get extreme to kill them. The other biggie is when they move topsoil around. If you strip off the topsoil and truck it away to make something like a road grade, then want to re-vegetate the newly exposed deep soil they use mycos. Best practice would be to leave the topsoil in a pile and redistribute it - not always practical. The bacteria, archea, and myco spores will hang-out in the pile of soil and thrive once the soil is redistributed and plants start growing in it. If re-vegetation of disturbed ground where the topsoil has been hauled away is important then they add mycos. Permaculture stuff.

The idea that the spores die off under relatively tame conditions quickly seems suspiciously like something someone who wants to sell lots of inoculum would say...

 

[PeeJay]

One more thing; when I was talking about 20 years ago and VAM fungi, I do recall the material which carried the fungi did need to touch the roots for proper establishment. However, over the years they have managed to put the fungi into powder form, liquid, pellets, powder, etc. Now, if this fungi could not survive without a root hair, how is this possible? I can pull textbooks off my shelves, but I can say with certainty that, once you inoculate soil with mycorrhizae, you do not have to do it again and again. In a container, it would be better to be sure and inoculate it with each planting. It can't hurt; it can only just be a little expensive. I remember the days when one gram of VAM fungi cost over 40 dollars.

Yup!

 

[ProperGreen]

Hi gardenfaerie! You've Peaked My Iinterest!

Growers like me always timed grows to coincide when people emerged from their homes with spring fever. Plants rarely, if ever, left the belts without a minimal level of flower buds. When you buy a plant at the store, the more squat plant with no flower is always going to be the best plant to buy, not the one with tons of buds and loose habit.


Now, for this topic of mycos; Indeed there are some very basic levels of survival for beneficial fungi in the soil and yes, it can take many, many years to formulate the adequate requirements to establish a fungal mat. The fungal mat does not depend on roots, it is the opposite. Back in the old days, about 20 years ago, when VAM Mycorrhizae was being introduced to the gardening market, there were many plants which absolutely did not benefit at all from the association, yet, it was still widely marketed without regard to this well known fact in the industry.


Now, I am not saying there does not have to be a symbiotic relationship with the root hair, but the evidence I've seen does not indicate the mycorrhizae is dependent on the root hair in order to establish a fungal mat and/or the ability to survive in soils sans roots.

Hmm, so are you implying that mycos function independently of plant roots? As far as I've learned, mycorrhizal spores need roots to germinate. Is that misinfo? I wasn't speaking on the general fungal biomass mass depending on the roots, but I was in regards to the mycos!

One more thing; when I was talking about 20 years ago and VAM fungi, I do recall the material which carried the fungi did need to touch the roots for proper establishment. However, over the years they have managed to put the fungi into powder form, liquid, pellets, powder, etc. Now, if this fungi could not survive without a root hair, how is this possible? I can pull textbooks off my shelves, but I can say with certainty that, once you inoculate soil with mycorrhizae, you do not have to do it again and again. In a container, it would be better to be sure and inoculate it with each planting. It can't hurt; it can only just be a little expensive. I remember the days when one gram of VAM fungi cost over 40 dollars.

Also, do you know how long it takes mycos to colonize a root mass? In general? I've learned that its best to infect the roots from multiple spots if possible, which would in turn speed up this colonization process. What are tour thoughts?

& Blessings

 

[ProperGreen]

Spores are very durable. For more information look for stuff about "burn area mitigation." When a forest fire burns very hot it will completely sterilize the soil. Myco inoculants are part of the reforestation protocol because the extreme heat destroys the spores. Things have to get extreme to kill them. The other biggie is when they move topsoil around. If you strip off the topsoil and truck it away to make something like a road grade, then want to re-vegetate the newly exposed deep soil they use mycos. Best practice would be to leave the topsoil in a pile and redistribute it - not always practical. The bacteria, archea, and myco spores will hang-out in the pile of soil and thrive once the soil is redistributed and plants start growing in it. If re-vegetation of disturbed ground where the topsoil has been hauled away is important then they add mycos. Permaculture stuff.

The idea that the spores die off under relatively tame conditions quickly seems suspiciously like something someone who wants to sell lots of inoculum would say...

Understood. I'm not sure where I read that at, but in looking for some answers, I've already come across sources citing that the spores can last several years without germinating, so I wish I never said it now! But I can't say that I didn't learn some new things today haha!
And yeah the video on my thread had the example of an overturned tree on it, to which mycos was applied to the roots prior to the tree being set back upright, and this tree was fully back to life in about 90 days!
My lady is bringing the Mac back from Apple right now, so I'll try and find it tonight if it's no longer there for some reason.

& Blessings

ps, I won't spam your thread anymore lol, I'll spam the mycorrhiza thread on the forum!

 

[GardenFaerie]

Re: Hi gardenfaerie! You've Peaked My Iinterest!

Hmm, so are you implying that mycos function independently of plant roots? As far as I've learned, mycorrhizal spores need roots to germinate. Is that misinfo? I wasn't speaking on the general fungal biomass mass depending on the roots, but I was in regards to the mycos!

Also, do you know how long it takes mycos to colonize a root mass? In general? I've learned that its best to infect the roots from multiple spots if possible, which would in turn speed up this colonization process. What are tour thoughts?

& Blessings

I didn't say they function in the absence of roots, however Endo and Ecto mycorrhizae fungi both are very resilient and can remain in the soil as spores without the presence of roots or root hairs for many years. When the presence of a root hair occurs, the spore will germinate and depending on whether it is ecto or endo, the hyphae will or won't penetrate or surround the root hair, but both will benefit the plant.

I would agree with that. The fungi does need to come into contact with roots, but with water soluble fungi these days, I wonder if this would penetrate the soil to get close to roots. At least in the top horizon of soil in the ground would receive sufficient fungi to establish a colonization. How long that takes to establish is hard to determine. Suffice to day, decades. When the fungal mat is disturbed it can take a very long time to repair. If people use fungicides or herbicides in the soil, particularly atrazine, goodbye mycorrhizae.

 

[Graytail]

Wow, folks, great discussion!

One thing I'd like to add. My understanding is that the mycos establish colonies on a root and then propagate as that root grows and branches. If true, early innoculation is most efficient and effective - like at the first transplant from seedling, even in the soil the seed sprouts into. In fact, I just recently clipped off a lower branch, dipped it in generic rooting powder and stuck it in a 1.5 gallon pot of live HB soil. The sucker didn't skip a beat. That soil was chock full of fresh live mycos.

 

[COorganics]

Feel free to take it too my thread too!!

 

[GardenFaerie]

Wow, folks, great discussion!

One thing I'd like to add. My understanding is that the mycos establish colonies on a root and then propagate as that root grows and branches. If true, early innoculation is most efficient and effective - like at the first transplant from seedling, even in the soil the seed sprouts into. In fact, I just recently clipped off a lower branch, dipped it in generic rooting powder and stuck it in a 1.5 gallon pot of live HB soil. The sucker didn't skip a beat. That soil was chock full of fresh live mycos.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the mycos in that soil had anything to do with the health of the cutting or the rapid rooting. Once the plant is established, sure. But mycorrhizae does not travel to the roots. Even though I can drench with the product I am currently using on my new plants for the gardens, I still mix it up and after I remove the plant from the 4" container, I then dip it totally into the liquid with the fungi, and a little half strength kelp to hasten the development of new root hairs. Sorry, I think I'm repeating myself...but this is a very important thing. Roots find the beneficial fungi and as it does the mycos germinate and form the relationship. The fungi will rest or go dormant until roots enter their zone and wake its mechanism.

 

[Graytail]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the mycos in that soil had anything to do with the health of the cutting or the rapid rooting. Once the plant is established, sure. But mycorrhizae does not travel to the roots. Even though I can drench with the product I am currently using on my new plants for the gardens, I still mix it up and after I remove the plant from the 4" container, I then dip it totally into the liquid with the fungi, and a little half strength kelp to hasten the development of new root hairs. Sorry, I think I'm repeating myself...but this is a very important thing. Roots find the beneficial fungi and as it does the mycos germinate and form the relationship. The fungi will rest or go dormant until roots enter their zone and wake its mechanism.

I would have to cede to your better knowledge, but I have this high brix mix and I recycle the chopped roots back into the mix, so it's likely to have mycos distributed throughout the soil. I also have this rooting amendment that I sprinkle generously over the roots and the hole, consisting of powdered minerals and mycos and other stuff, some of which may be humates. I'm using Doc's kit, so the ingredients and process are sort of a black box to me.

But I remember from my limited reading that nothing happens until there's physical contact between root and myco, so I'm leery of mycos in feedings - seems relatively ineffective.

 

[PeeJay]

Nice observation Gray. Once the roots are colonized, given favorable conditions, the mycos will grow at-pace with the roots. There is a lot of cell signaling going on. The Plant feeds the mycos and the mycos feeds the plants. They get their groove on! If you delve deep into their world, you find that mycos love mineralized soil.

There was a thing in Dresney's journal some time back.... I need to go lift a picture. Well, no I don't really. She had some drainage slits cut into the side of her pots and there were these crazy things coming out slits. I looked at 'em and it looked like something attached to roots growing through the slits at the bottom of the pot.

When I saw that I knew that it was vermiculite adhered to the roots by poly-saccharide mycorrrhizal matrix. Very cool. I have the picture I posted to justify my observation in my gallery. Here is a root from an arid climate plant that has bound sand (full of minerals) to itself - busting down sand to provide the plant with micro-minerals as well as inorganic phosphate and getting sugars in return. Fun stuff.

That is not a picture of a garden plant that someone threw handfuls of inoculum on. It is a picture of a wild-plant root very carefully excavated from an arid environment by field scientists at a land-grant university. The propagation of mycos is not dependent on insane numbers of spores being available - it's dependent on the conditions of the soil and the health of the plant that feeds it sugar through root exudates. The mycos are a growing-living thing just like the plant. You can throw a bazillion seeds around and they will only grow and thrive if the conditions are right. In the same way, it is not the number of spores, but the quality of the conditions that influence the spread of mycos. They thrive if they have what they need to thrive.

 

[Graytail]

LOL, that's ... well, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

At first I hadn't scrolled all the way down and I just saw the valiant little rootlet with a couple grains stuck on it, and then I scrolled the rest of the way ...

LOL!

I guess those mycos have a strong handshake, eh?

 

[B A R]

I remember that on Dres' thread PJ. I just used Mykos for the 1st time in the soil of a new seedling last week. I had no idea what it was for exactly but since I had it & PJ and Jimmy suggested using it in that soil I did. Thanxx for this enlightening convo guys.

 

[COorganics]

Look at the amount of info given and great conversation here in the span of 1 day! This is why I decided to join the forum in the first place. I'm smarter than I was this morning thanks to PeeJay and others and my willingness to research!

 

[GardenFaerie]

I would have to cede to your better knowledge, but I have this high brix mix and I recycle the chopped roots back into the mix, so it's likely to have mycos distributed throughout the soil. I also have this rooting amendment that I sprinkle generously over the roots and the hole, consisting of powdered minerals and mycos and other stuff, some of which may be humates. I'm using Doc's kit, so the ingredients and process are sort of a black box to me.

But I remember from my limited reading that nothing happens until there's physical contact between root and myco, so I'm leery of mycos in feedings - seems relatively ineffective.

Always question everything! I do. I don't blindly believe everything I read, nor do I believe someone just because they went to school...like me. I can be wrong at any given time, so always check up.

When I very first saw you mentioning BRIX measurements, I was not sure why you would do such a thing, but after reading I realize that the BRIX levels can effect the overall health. Of course a high BRIX plant would be less prone to insect and disease problems because the way insects see, they can see how the light bends and refracts. That will signal them to a weak plant. Historically, the weakest plants are also the plants with an abundance of elements like N or improperly prepared soil for the plant you want to grow.

A healthy plant is not healthy because it is absent of insects. It is WHY it is absent of insects. They simply do not have an attraction to the healthy plant when they can have a sick one which will also have the most sugars. The reason for that is due to the plant going into survival mode and storing all its carbohydrates in the form of sugars, which are like, dayglo green to an aphid or spider mite! A neon sign, eat me, eat me! Sorry I'm rambling. My point is, please don't just believe what people say, always check it out with several reliable sources. Data is always in flux and constantly rendered either obsolete or on to a new understanding of the subject. That, is my point.

 

[Calyx Hunter]

Great conversation! I recently used mycorrhizae for the first time on my current grow. I did my research and innoculated the hole where I placed my root plug in the final pots and I noticed growth like I'd never seen before. The symbiotic relationship going on is undeniable. It is so great that cannabis growing has evolved to this point and that each of us can learn and grow right along with our gardens.

 

[CronicHempHog]

Great info on the mycos Pj Happy FreeWeed Day

 

[RainStacks]

Great discussion and pics PJ! I hope you are having a wonderful weekend

 

[COorganics]

Peejay everything good man?

 

[GardenFaerie]

I've been wondering the same thing. Where ya been PeeJay?

 

[mcloadie]

Always question everything! I do. I don't blindly believe everything I read, nor do I believe someone just because they went to school...like me. I can be wrong at any given time, so always check up.

When I very first saw you mentioning BRIX measurements, I was not sure why you would do such a thing, but after reading I realize that the BRIX levels can effect the overall health. Of course a high BRIX plant would be less prone to insect and disease problems because the way insects see, they can see how the light bends and refracts. That will signal them to a weak plant. Historically, the weakest plants are also the plants with an abundance of elements like N or improperly prepared soil for the plant you want to grow.

A healthy plant is not healthy because it is absent of insects. It is WHY it is absent of insects. They simply do not have an attraction to the healthy plant when they can have a sick one which will also have the most sugars. The reason for that is due to the plant going into survival mode and storing all its carbohydrates in the form of sugars, which are like, dayglo green to an aphid or spider mite! A neon sign, eat me, eat me! Sorry I'm rambling. My point is, please don't just believe what people say, always check it out with several reliable sources. Data is always in flux and constantly rendered either obsolete or on to a new understanding of the subject. That, is my point.

High brix readings come from HEALTHY plants............how you achieve this health is negotiable. I am very familiar with the brix system.........and this is the first place I have heard of it being used as a barometer for determining plant health. We use the brix measurement for determining SUGAR content. The canneries and fruit buyers tell us when they want the fruit........all determined by the desired sugar content. Do I want sugar in my weed?....no....do I want higher brix levels at harvest...no.....not on my weed. I understand the point of using the brix meter.......and it's based on theory.....I would like to see a brix grow outdoors comparable to mine and see what the quality and yield are, we don't play around with our work.....we absolutely max everything out....and funny thing, I know at least ten....what are referred to as "master growers"..........and why has none of them even contemplated these brix systems? I am skeptical as to the benefit......I believe I can get at least comparable results at close to 5% of the cost of using the high brix amendments, with good old fashioned fundamental growing techniques....just my opinion.