GeoFlora Nutrients Discussion Thread

[Emilya Green]

I’m copying this here because I’d like to make sure @GeoFlora Nutrients sees it, as well as anyone else looking for information on their products:

Okay so, @GeoFlora Nutrients i have some questions.

1) I see that your nutrients are made with a whole list of the “usual suspects” for soil amendments. Does this mean your top dress is a combination of bacterial and fungal foods meant to be made available by soil biology?

2) is the biological addition to your nutrients sufficient to supply soil with the minimum recommended biomass of 300ug/g of bacteria and fungi?

3) I notice also that your nutrient system supplies no predatory organisms (Protozoa, nematodes, micro arthopods), what is the mode of nutrient cycling that takes place with your nutrient system if no predators are present?

4) your listed organisms are only about 4-5 species of very similar bacteria and 4-5 species of very similar VAM fungi, do you have recommendations for driving biological diversity up?/do you make a product that provides bacterial diversity in the thousands or tens of thousands of species and a product that provides saprophytic fungi?

I’m just trying to understand how to better use your products, thanks!

The last couple of years of use has proven to me that whatever is in the Geoflora, it does seem to work well as is. If you wish to have more microbes, maybe try supplementing with URB, Voodoo Juice or RealGrower's Recharge... all microbial inoculation products.

 

[ChefDGreen]

The last couple of years of use has proven to me that whatever is in the Geoflora, it does seem to work well as is. If you wish to have more microbes, maybe try supplementing with URB, Voodoo Juice or RealGrower's Recharge... all microbial inoculation products.

Well that’s great. It’s not that I wish to have more microbes, lol. It’s that I’m curious about what exactly is going on in the soil with applications of geflora and how their products play into the grand scheme of things in an organic soil system. Each of those products you mentioned has <10 distinct species of bacteria or fungi (and the fungi are all AM, no ectomycorrhizals), and no predatory microorganisms. I just am wondering how the nutrients become mineralized without nutrient cycling organisms. Because clearly, mineralization is occurring - otherwise your plant wouldn’t uptake any nutrients from the product.

 

[Emilya Green]

Well that’s great. It’s not that I wish to have more microbes, lol. It’s that I’m curious about what exactly is going on in the soil with applications of geflora and how their products play into the grand scheme of things in an organic soil system. Each of those products you mentioned has <10 distinct species of bacteria or fungi (and the fungi are all AM, no ectomycorrhizals), and no predatory microorganisms. I just am wondering how the nutrients become mineralized without nutrient cycling organisms. Because clearly, mineralization is occurring - otherwise your plant wouldn’t uptake any nutrients from the product.

I am not at all certain that the organic feeding cycle requires predator microbes or aerobic anaerobic microbes in order to make everything work. When I ran TLO, I specifically cultured just a few types of microbes into my teas, and it was my belief that by using active aeration I was able to eliminate a lot of the aerobic anaerobic and bad microbes from my mixes. It was also explained to me that I had to brew my teas in a specific order, so that predators would not over populate my teas and eliminate the good microbes that I was trying to introduce.

 

[Azimuth]

I am not at all certain that the organic feeding cycle requires predator microbes or aerobic microbes in order to make everything work. When I ran TLO, I specifically cultured just a few types of microbes into my teas, and it was my belief that by using active aeration I was able to eliminate a lot of the aerobic and bad microbes from my mixes. It was also explained to me that I had to brew my teas in a specific order, so that predators would not over populate my teas and eliminate the good microbes that I was trying to introduce.

Did you mean anaerobic and bad microbes? I thought the point of aeration was to culture and increase the aerobic ones at the expense of the anaerobes.

I stopped brewing teas after reading the argument that without a microscope you really don't know what you have in your mix and what is dominant is determined by length of brew times, temperatures, ratio of inputs, etc. Too many variables to be consistent in what the output is.

I've got plenty of worm castings so I just upped the amount I use and it seems to be working fine.

 

[Emilya Green]

Did you mean anaerobic and bad microbes? I thought the point of aeration was to culture and increase the aerobic ones at the expense of the anaerobes.

I stopped brewing teas after reading the argument that without a microscope you really don't know what you have in your mix and what is dominant is determined by length of brew times, temperatures, ratio of inputs, etc. Too many variables to be consistent in what the output is.

I've got plenty of worm castings so I just upped the amount I use and it seems to be working fine.

I did... got the terms mixed up somewhere between my head and my fingers.

 

[Azimuth]

I did... got the terms mixed up somewhere between my head and my fingers.

Ok, thanks. Just wanted to be sure of my understanding of the whole "tea" thing.

 

[ChefDGreen]

I am completely certain that proper nutrient cycling in soil absolutely requires aerobic predatory microbes. Bacteria and fungi only sequester nutrients, they do nothing to mineralize and put into soil solution any nutrients. They are the storage for all intents and purposes. Predatory microbes (flagellates, amoeba, nematodes, micro arthopods) are absolutely required for mineralization. It’s the difference in C:N in the bodies of the bacteria and their predators that causes mineralization. Typical predator-prey cycles will be exhibited until things reach an equilibrium. Azimuth is absolutely correct, Tea is 100% unknown unless you can verify under microscope what you’re producing. In most unverified teas you find either nothing, or a whole host of facultative anaerobes that are gassing off your desired nutrients.


*sidenote - my microscope will be here in a couple months

 

[Azimuth]

I saw some pretty healthy grows in the Girl Scout Cookies threads using these nutes so whatever the mix is, it must be complete enough to produce consistently good results. There were some questions early on about how much to add to the potting mix and then top dress with, but once those got sorted all of the grows seemed to have great success with them.

I'm not debating the science of what you're saying and it makes sense, I just don't know enough about the science to have an informed opinion on that.

 

[ChefDGreen]

That’s fair enough! I didn’t post here to get into a debate on how soil science works.

I see the results from the geoflora so it clearly works to some capacity. I’m just wondering as to how it works. It’s pretty obvious with bottled nutrients how they work, and why no microbes are required. So I’m curious about how the geoflora works, what part the microbes play… and if it’s possible to perhaps supercharge the results with a bit of science and a microscope.

 

[Azimuth]

That’s fair enough! I didn’t post here to get into a debate on how soil science works.

I see the results from the geoflora so it clearly works to some capacity. I’m just wondering as to how it works. It’s pretty obvious with bottled nutrients how they work, and why no microbes are required. So I’m curious about how the geoflora works, what part the microbes play… and if it’s possible to perhaps supercharge the results with a bit of science and a microscope.

Would you be able to get the predator side and other things you're looking for through worm castings?

 

[InTheShed]

This is not my bailiwick, but I did have this thought: since GeoFlora is supposed to work in non-microbe environments like peat and coco, is it possible that it's really just a soluble organic nutrient delivery system? The fact that they can actually list NPK/Ca/Mg/S percentages (which is impossible for an organic soil grow without lab analysis) makes it seem as if it's more like an organically sourced version of synthetic nutrients.

 

[bobrown14]

Well that’s great. It’s not that I wish to have more microbes, lol. It’s that I’m curious about what exactly is going on in the soil with applications of geflora and how their products play into the grand scheme of things in an organic soil system. Each of those products you mentioned has <10 distinct species of bacteria or fungi (and the fungi are all AM, no ectomycorrhizals), and no predatory microorganisms. I just am wondering how the nutrients become mineralized without nutrient cycling organisms. Because clearly, mineralization is occurring - otherwise your plant wouldn’t uptake any nutrients from the product.

There are literally BILLIONS of bacteria in a cup of soil.

They cycle very quickly say hours if not minutes and some eat each other.

Once they die, as their cell walls break down their nutrients (soluble) are released into the soil to be eaten by other microbes/fungi/plant roots.

Introducing certain species .... not even sure its a thing. Your best option here is your local forest floor. Get bucket full of leaf mold and add that to your compost bin.

Add that finished compost to your soil mix. This will ensure your microbes stay with you soil over time as they have been doing for millions of years.

There's fierce competition in the soil with microbes of all sorts. For anyone that is telling you this one or that one is more beneficial they likely have something to sell you.

I need to try growing without adding microbes and just rely on whats already there. I keep my soil alive with cover crops and then cannabis plants and rotate in and out same as I do outside.

There's a lot more to bacteria than we know about. A TON more.

That all said.. I use Wallace Organic Wonder for my mycos and rely on my compost for the bacteria side of it all.

Im not positive but I think there are bacteria added to GeoFlora so they help break down the GeoFlora stuff into soluble form for plant uptake. Its a slow process so why we are doing week to week additions. Its my guess...that those microbes are added to specifically break down their product in case say they are added to a soil-less media.
My soil will break them down no problem with out any added microbes. Positive on that one.

 

[StoneOtter]

 

[Emilya Green]

This is not my bailiwick, but I did have this thought: since GeoFlora is supposed to work in non-microbe environments like peat and coco, is it possible that it's really just a soluble organic nutrient delivery system? The fact that they can actually list NPK/Ca/Mg/S percentages (which is impossible for an organic soil grow without lab analysis) makes it seem as if it's more like an organically sourced version of synthetic nutrients.

If this were the case, it would then be possible to burn plants by giving too much, since the normal organic feeding cycle would not be in use, where the plants and the microbes are working together to bring just what the plant needs to the roots. Cases like the recent one we saw with the OP having had given twice the recommended amount during the entire grow, and not having a problem until the very end, and of course @StoneOtter and his outside plant where he was giving 4x the 10 gallon dosage without a single problem, argue against this theory. No, it seems obvious to me that microbes are controlling this feeding cycle and that this is truly an organic grow because of it. If this were not the case, and he dumped 4 cups of soluble organic nutrient on his plant all through the grow, there would be a little burn mark in the ground where his plant had once stood and then suddenly self combusted from so many nutes all at once.

 

[InTheShed]

If this were the case, it would then be possible to burn plants by giving too much, since the normal organic feeding cycle would not be in use, where the plants and the microbes are working together to bring just what the plant needs to the roots. Cases like the recent one we saw with the OP having had given twice the recommended amount during the entire grow, and not having a problem until the very end, and of course @StoneOtter and his outside plant where he was giving 4x the 10 gallon dosage without a single problem, argue against this theory. No, it seems obvious to me that microbes are controlling this feeding cycle and that this is truly an organic grow because of it. If this were not the case, and he dumped 4 cups of soluble organic nutrient on his plant all through the grow, there would be a little burn mark in the ground where his plant had once stood and then suddenly self combusted from so many nutes all at once.

I am sure that the result is an organic grow, but do large quantities of any composted organic fertilizer burn plants?

 

[Emilya Green]

Well that’s great. It’s not that I wish to have more microbes, lol. It’s that I’m curious about what exactly is going on in the soil with applications of geflora and how their products play into the grand scheme of things in an organic soil system. Each of those products you mentioned has <10 distinct species of bacteria or fungi (and the fungi are all AM, no ectomycorrhizals), and no predatory microorganisms. I just am wondering how the nutrients become mineralized without nutrient cycling organisms. Because clearly, mineralization is occurring - otherwise your plant wouldn’t uptake any nutrients from the product.

I am still trying to understand why you think that predator microbes need to be involved. Microbes do not have to die to give up the goodness they are carrying. Some microbes eat a raw mineral and then excrete a more usable form of that mineral for the plant. Many will excrete this useable element and receive an exudate from the plant in exchange, each nourishing the other. It is rare to see a microbe have to die and decompose in order to release the element, but that does happen too.

 

[Emilya Green]

I am sure that the result is an organic grow, but do large quantities of any composted organic fertilizer burn plants?

Put a huge portion of organic 4-4-4 in a container and get back to me what happens. Or, try bloodmeal, it is very good at burning plants. Manure is another one... too much and the grow is toast. Yes, it is very easy to burn plants using "organic" fertilizers. Organic inputs is not what makes a grow organic. A grow isn't organic unless the microbes are feeding the plants, not the gardener.

 

[InTheShed]

I thought that composting most organic fertilizer took much of the burning risk out, and the time release would make it even less likely. But as I mentioned in my post, just an idea and not my bailiwick!

 

[Emilya Green]

Once composted, some of the elements are bound to the soil. There is no time release... its either in there or not. The microbes are the check valve that allows for the slow handing out of some of the nutrients. The problem is that a lot of elements are already bioavailable without needing the microbes help and are water soluble too, hence the ability to burn on their own. The microbes don't do everything.
Just because something is composted does not make it safe. I use composted cow manure in a thin layer in the bottom of my containers. Any more than this and I burn my plants. Even composted, this steer manure is powerful stuff and has to be used carefully. You could compost this stuff for a long long time and it is still going to be too strong to use in abundance.

 

[InTheShed]

Gotcha, thanks!