MotaFina - 15 Year Old White Widow x Skunk Seeds - Indoor Soil - HID

[BluePhoric]

I fed the plants just now. Here's what I got:

I ph'd the nutrient mix to 5.5-6.0. I watered slowly and kept watering until I started to get runoff. They took a lot of water.

Runoff from the 5-gal and the two 3-gal pots was right around 6.5-7 - maybe closer to 7 on one of them. I didn't test the 7-gal pot because I just transplanted into it yesterday.

Not what I was expecting. I expected a lower reading from the runoff.

So... The soil buffered like 1 pt UP.
It may have buffered the same if you poured a PH 4.5 mix... we can't know.
Anyway, you know the PH in the soil right at this moment seems fine. One less thing to worry.

Then you are left with the question : WHY the plants wont take up the Nitrogen correctly ? The N should be ok as long as PH is over 5-5.5

 

[Pennywise]

Give them a shot of nitrogen and see how they react

 

[MotaFina]

ROUTBOUND : Just a come back on that matter. I know many tolerate some amount of roots to congregate around the pot. What I experienced with the seedlings (had 6 more of the Freedom Dream variety) in transparent solo-cups, is that as soon as the roots reached the borders and bottom, or soon-after, was the best time to re-pot. When I waited a few days more... it made a big difference. The plants stopped growing somewhat, and then had a boost immediately after I transpotted.

My theory is this :
- Any root that has its face against plastic is only in contact with soil for 50% of its surface or less.
- Liquids go down fast on the edge of the pot.
- The small hairs on the roots are rapidly in contact with air as the pot drys.
- The liquid on the edge does not get buffered as much by the grow medium.
- A gap of air is created at the edge of the pot that is occupied by the roots. Liquid goes down fast at that location = Fast runoff.
- In a plastic pot, there are not as many roots starting from the center of the plant and exploring the soil. They all go straight to the edge of the pot.

This thread here may be a good read.

My opinion is that any root bind, even moderate, is not a very good thing. My sin is that I chose to do the whole grow in 3Gal pots. Fortunately those are fabric pots, witch help a lot, but I may encounter problems later (I hope not); the plants are bigger than I thought.

I am glad that you repotted 1 plant. It will be a good test to see if it does any good to that specific plant.

I tried to develop a good root ball. I did a number of transplants. I started in little 4-inch pots (about the size of a solo cup), went to 1-gal and 2-gal, then to 3-gal and 5-gal, and now one to 7. In theory, the roots will fill out the room they have, then when transplanted, will fill out to the next barrier. And over multiple transplants, they should fill out the whole region, rather that shooting over to the wall and then circling it. But these girls' roots never got very overwhelming. They're still not super full, judging by the one I transplanted yesterday.

Thanks again for all the help and advice!

 

[MotaFina]

Give them a shot of nitrogen and see how they react

Fish emulsion (5-1-1)?

 

[Pennywise]

Yep that will work .

 

[BluePhoric]

Fish emulsion (5-1-1)?

Do you have to wait till next watering to add the fish emulsion ?

 

[MotaFina]

Do you have to wait till next watering to add the fish emulsion ?

Yes, I just watered/fed yesterday. I can probably water again tomorrow with the fish emulsion.

Three of them look really bad today. The yellowing is almost all the way up to the buds today. Might be a lost cause. I can't imagine them making it another 5 weeks....frustrating.

 

[BluePhoric]

Yes, I just watered/fed yesterday. I can probably water again tomorrow with the fish emulsion.

Three of them look really bad today. The yellowing is almost all the way up to the buds today. Might be a lost cause. I can't imagine them making it another 5 weeks....frustrating.

Shit, that'd be a very sad outcome. Have you started new seedlings in the meanwhile ? Clones ?

 

[MotaFina]

Shit, that'd be a very sad outcome. Have you started new seedlings in the meanwhile ? Clones ?

No, not yet. That reality hasn't fully hit me yet.

The one plant is still looking OK, although it's started downhill too. But I might be able to turn it around, or it might make it the distance.

 

[MotaFina]

I'm experimenting a little with pH UP. I mixed up my nutrients for today (Grow, Bloom, Catalyst, Meta-K and Microblast) and tested pH. It's RED, like 4.0 or below. So, I added one drop of pH UP to the testing jar and it immediately changed that to light green, somewhere 7 or above. So, to get an idea of how much I need to add to 3 gal of nutrient mix, I took 1/2 cup of the mix and added 1 ML pH UP and tested that. That was too much....turned green. Did it again with another 1/2 cup and this time added 1/4 ML...just right...yellowish orange, probably around 5.5-6. So, 1/4 ML/1/2 cup = .5 ML/cup = 8 ML/gallon. Wow, that's a lot! So that's about 1.5 tsp per gallon...1.5 Tbsp for this feeding. Chuh... really?

Looking further into this, it looks like this is to be expected. Here's a quote from Groweedeasy:

"For PH UP - PH Up is not potent stuff! It actually has a very weak effect. Compared to PH Down you will need to add much more PH Up to adjust the pH by the same amount. With PH Up, depending on how hard your water is you need to add 2-4mL/gallon of water to raise the pH 1 point. In imperial measurements that's 0.4-0.8tsp/gallon."

Since EJ drops the mix to ~4.0, it needs to come up about 2 pts. On the high end of groweedeasy's instructions, that's 8 ml/gallon - exactly what my testing indicated.

Now the question is whether or not to adjust pH at all. The soil pH is around 6.5-7, a little higher than ideal. So, I'd think the low pH mix should be OK in that soil, especially given the indications that it seems to be buffering pretty well.

 

[BluePhoric]

Now the question is whether or not to adjust pH at all. The soil pH is around 6.5-7, a little higher than ideal. So, I'd think the low pH mix should be OK in that soil, especially given the indications that it seems to be buffering pretty well.

1- Your EJ feedings were normal, so there was no reason for lack of Nitrogen, except if PH was really low or if root-bound.
2- If your soil PH was to high (7.0 or+) you'd have other symptoms (iron/zinc) that would show on NEW leaves, with yellowing starting from the stem gradually to the leaf-tip. You have the opposite, so no too-high-ph problem.
3- Your PH in soil was ok, but you had already ?not sure? PH+UP'ed your EJ a bit so that helped it to 6.5-7.0

If I were you, I'd adjust PH to 5.5 or 6.0 and let the soil do the rest of buffering. Nitrogen has a relatively large range vs PH.
At PH~6, N should be absorbed normally.

There is a fundamental reason for the plants lacking in Nitrogen.
Either, a) PH5.5 or less, b) root-bound c) root-problems (pests/root-tot, etc)

You said you added some agent in water to remove Chlorine ? Could this have an adverse effect on the nutes ?

My water is treated with chlorine and I just let it stand for 12-24hrs and everything is fine.

I suggest you keep trying to get PH in a good range prior to watering, AND add Nitrogen like Pennywise suggested. Also continue to monitor runoff water.

Could your PH+UP kill the good bacteria in EJ nutes ? Is it a chemical ? That's why I went with dolomite Lime. Was afraid chemicals would kill the organic nutes. Anyways, if that's the case... UPing the PH for giving inefficient nutes would be like chasing your own tail.

 

[BluePhoric]

A piece of info I grabbed here :

It would be safer and healthier to up your PH only to high 5s or very low 6s, since the natural organic process, at least with EJ, raises the PH. So feeding a water/mix with a PH of 6.5 or higher may be unhealthy for the plants, at the high 5s or low 6s it would probably be safe, much safer than leaving it at 5 or lower.

This statement makes sense to me : The natural organic process, at least with EJ, raises the PH

If "bubbling" the mix for 24h raises the PH, same thing happens in soil, over a period of time after watering. That may be why the runoff PH readings seem to be ok. The existing organic soil and EJ nutes auto adjust over a certain period of bacterial activity.

As a side note... They say that organic (EJ) nutes do not feed the plant. They feed the bacteria in the soil. So it's an indirect process, contrary to chemicals that make nutrients directly available to the plant.

 

[MotaFina]

If I were you, I'd adjust PH to 5.5 or 6.0 and let the soil do the rest of buffering. Nitrogen has a relatively large range vs PH. At PH~6, N should be absorbed normally.

I think that's great advice....totally agree.

You said you added some agent in water to remove Chlorine ? Could this have an adverse effect on the nutes ?

My water is treated with chlorine and I just let it stand for 12-24hrs and everything is fine.

The water here has both Chlorine and Chloramine. Chloramine doesn't disappear over time. So I was treating the water with a very small amount of Campden, which is supposed to immediately remove Chloramine. I couldn't find much information on whether it should be used in horticulture. I used it in homebrewing beer in the past and figured it should be OK. I believe it is potassium metabisulfate. I've pretty much stopped using it. I read that it's used in winemaking to stop wild yeasts. So, it could be that the potassium metabisulfate is to blame....killing off the good bacteria....or that stopping using it has allowed Chloramine into the soil, which could also be the culprit. The amount of chloramine shouldn't be very high though.

I could start buying RO water at the store I suppose. That might be worth a try.

Should I get some supplemental beneficial microbes to add? To make up for what might have been killed?

I suggest you keep trying to get PH in a good range prior to watering, AND add Nitrogen like Pennywise suggested. Also continue to monitor runoff water.

Could your PH+UP kill the good bacteria in EJ nutes ? Is it a chemical ? That's why I went with dolomite Lime. Was afraid chemicals would kill the organic nutes. Anyways, if that's the case... UPing the PH for giving inefficient nutes would be like chasing your own tail.

Another good question. GH PH UP is Potassium Hydroxide and Potassium Carbonate. Sounds like a chemical to me. I hated using it, but I felt I had to do something. So much of the advice out there is "Adjust the pH" and "Add Cal-Mag"....it makes you crazy.

 

[BluePhoric]

I think that's great advice....totally agree.



The water here has both Chlorine and Chloramine. Chloramine doesn't disappear over time. So I was treating the water with a very small amount of Campden, which is supposed to immediately remove Chloramine. I couldn't find much information on whether it should be used in horticulture. I used it in homebrewing beer in the past and figured it should be OK. I believe it is potassium metabisulfate. I've pretty much stopped using it. I read that it's used in winemaking to stop wild yeasts. So, it could be that the potassium metabisulfate is to blame....killing off the good bacteria....or that stopping using it has allowed Chloramine into the soil, which could also be the culprit. The amount of chloramine shouldn't be very high though.

I could start buying RO water at the store I suppose. That might be worth a try.

Should I get some supplemental beneficial microbes to add? To make up for what might have been killed?



Another good question. GH PH UP is Potassium Hydroxide and Potassium Carbonate. Sounds like a chemical to me. I hated using it, but I felt I had to do something. So much of the advice out there is "Adjust the pH" and "Add Cal-Mag"....it makes you crazy.

Can you get the EJ ph up ?

 

[BluePhoric]

I don't know if my water has chloramine in it... Too bad.

I know it smells like chlorine when I fill the bucket, and it doesn't smell much if any after 12 hours.

 

[Pennywise]

I never worry about chloramine just let my tap water set for a few hours a d it seems to have no ill affect on the plants.

 

[MotaFina]

If the microbes might have been affected by the Campden, do you think I should try a synthetic fertilizer high in nitrogen instead of fish emulsion? Synthetics don't depend on microbes, right? That would change the grow from an "organic" grow, but if it saves the plants, it'd be worth it.

 

[Pennywise]

Its worth a try just start slow with the nitrogen. Dont want to overdo it

 

[BluePhoric]

Synthetic fertilizer : Will it kill your organics ?

Your soil is not dead in terms of bacteria. Otherwise, your runoff water's PH would not have risen. So there's activity with soil/EJ nutes I guess.

I'd patiently try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Troubleshoot like with computers. Eliminate possible causes without adding new variables if possible.

Personally, i'd go :
- Organic PH up to PH 5.5 (EJ or lime) / AND / Eliminate chem PH up.
- Eliminate water treatment with Campden
- Add Nitrogen, but very small amount. (if the plants suddenly start taking the EJ nutes, Nitrogen may become too much)

I know, patience is not the easiest thing when there's a sense of emergency...

 

[MotaFina]

I hear ya. But things were already in motion. I changed things up. I got RO water from the dispenser at the store and added a light feeding of a synthetic high-N fert, along with a regular amount of Catalyst and Microblast.

In regards to pH UP, I found this: "To raise pH add a base. The bases used in hydroponics are Potassium Hydroxide and Sodium Hydroxide. These disassociate and provide Potassium and Sodium, respectively.".

I pH'd the mix to ~5.0 and got runoff of around 6.5. Hoping for the best.

On a brighter note, the buds are looking pretty nice. The buds on the one plant that got transplanted to 7-gal are looking a little scary. They're small still, but already covered with trichomes and some pistils are already turning amber/brown. None of the other plants have much trichomes yet. So that one plant may be suffering the worst. OBS3 has got some nice looking buds, probably twice as big as the other plants. I have high hopes for her! (pun intended)