Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[cbdhemp808]

Ok, thanks!
And how much difference do you find between a plastic pot, and an air pot?
And have you ever tried air pots?
Thanks.

No I haven't tried air pots. Looks like the same principle as fabric pots – the roots shy away from the wall instead of wrapping around inside it.

 

[Azimuth]

Do you have any ideas as to why Bill's system yields similar results to SIP, except that both massively improve soil aeration? (Because one is constant moisture, and the other is a daily drench.)

I have long maintained that the true secret to the SIP was the air chamber, or more correctly the access to air it gives the roots. With enough fresh air you can keep the roots much wetter than without it. In DWC, the roots are constantly submerged in a pool of water but provided ample air with air stones.

Bill's layering system of incorporating extra layers of perlite helps bring in air in a bit of a different way. By flooding the top of the pots regularly with water he sucks down air in a vacuum behind the falling water and much of it gets stored in the perlite layers. From there the local roots have access to both air and water.

Another advantage of the perlite layers is it ensures that excess water will not pool near the roots but rather drain out through that perlite layer as it won't hold water. I assume he could water his plants multiple times per day without ill effect and keep the soil constantly moist if he wanted to.

I imagine his air pots would work better than the cloth pots as the holes in the air pots makes air flow and exchange easier that with the cloth ones.

But, it's all about the air. That's what seems to be the common link between high growth oriented systems like SIP, DWC, Bill's Layering System, etc.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Bill's layering system of incorporating extra layers of perlite helps bring in air in a bit of a different way. By flooding the top of the pots regularly with water he sucks down air in a vacuum behind the falling water and much of it gets stored in the perlite layers. From there the local roots have access to both air and water.

Is Bill growing in soil in that case, or coco?

I imagine his air pots would work better than the cloth pots as the holes in the air pots makes air flow and exchange easier that with the cloth ones.

Hmm... it likely depends on the fabric used. The weed cloth we use for our DIY smart pots is very thin, and porous to both air and water. At the microscopic scale, the holes in that cloth are enormous compared to water and air molecules. And because the holes are so small, they don't get clogged. That's my understanding.

 

[CBDMed]

I have long maintained that the true secret to the SIP was the air chamber, or more correctly the access to air it gives the roots.

Sí.
And it looks like you were correct!

With enough fresh air you can keep the roots much wetter than without it. In DWC, the roots are constantly submerged in a pool of water but provided ample air with air stones.

Ahhh.... Bill's system is like DWC because it supplies air with the stones!
(Thank you, Azi-Translate!)

Bill's layering system of incorporating extra layers of perlite helps bring in air in a bit of a different way. By flooding the top of the pots regularly with water he sucks down air in a vacuum behind the falling water and much of it gets stored in the perlite layers. From there the local roots have access to both air and water.

Well, very respectfully, I am not YET 100% sold on the idea that he is actually plunging air into the system. (Maybe I will understand this better once I run a few pots?) To me it seems like what he has is an air plenum (air ducting) that provides runoff for excess water, and also easy access to air. Which seems both clever and from what I can see, very effective.

Another advantage of the perlite layers is it ensures that excess water will not pool near the roots but rather drain out through that perlite layer as it won't hold water. I assume he could water his plants multiple times per day without ill effect and keep the soil constantly moist if he wanted to.

Sí.
It makes sense.
Thanks.

I imagine his air pots would work better than the cloth pots as the holes in the air pots makes air flow and exchange easier that with the cloth ones.

Ahhhh......
Ok, maybe I will have to look into cloth pots one day....

But, it's all about the air. That's what seems to be the common link between high growth oriented systems like SIP, DWC, Bill's Layering System, etc.

Sí.
Thanks for that analysis, Azi!

 

[CBDMed]

Is Bill growing in soil in that case, or coco?

Don't know, really.
@Bill284 , are you growing in soil, or in coco?

Hmm... it likely depends on the fabric used. The weed cloth we use for our DIY smart pots is very thin, and porous to both air and water. At the microscopic scale, the holes in that cloth are enormous compared to water and air molecules. And because the holes are so small, they don't get clogged. That's my understanding.

Ahh, ok. Thanks!
My interest is definitely piqued! But I just checked the costs on shipping, so I think I should probably test the parfait concept with fabric first.
(Prolly it will work, and then I will have to justify purchasing and shipping air pots, hahaha.)

 

[Azimuth]

Is Bill growing in soil in that case, or coco?

Has some plants in each, I believe.

Hmm... it likely depends on the fabric used. The weed cloth we use for our DIY smart pots is very thin, and porous to both air and water. At the microscopic scale, the holes in that cloth are enormous compared to water and air molecules. And because the holes are so small, they don't get clogged. That's my understanding.

That makes sense that different fabrics would offer different properties. The air pots have something like 1/2" holes which I would think offer much better air exchanges but maybe a bazillion little holes make up the difference?

 

[Azimuth]

Well, very respectfully, I am not YET 100% sold on the idea that he is actually plunging air into the system. (Maybe I will understand this better once I run a few pots?) To me it seems like what he has is an air plenum (air ducting) that provides runoff for excess water, and also easy access to air. Which seems both clever and from what I can see, very effective.

The air gets injected as a by-product of his watering as it gets sucked in behind it as it falls. He's not actively injecting it on his own.

And there's no air plenum as the perlite layers in his pots do not connect with each other. He does have one at the top edge of his pots to help with watering. It seems to have more to do with the vacuum created by the falling water.

 

[Bill284]

Don't know, really.
@Bill284 , are you growing in soil, or in coco?

Ahh, ok. Thanks!
My interest is definitely piqued! But I just checked the costs on shipping, so I think I should probably test the parfait concept with fabric first.
(Prolly it will work, and then I will have to justify purchasing and shipping air pots, hahaha.)

I'm a coco guy, but 19 including the 50 gallon are all soil.
My method works great in either.
Microbes, fungi and aeration, works in any pot.
But coco is my favorite.




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[CBDMed]

Has some plants in each, I believe.


That makes sense that different fabrics would offer different properties. The air pots have something like 1/2" holes which I would think offer much better air exchanges but maybe a bazillion little holes make up the difference?

Hmmm....
Actually, now that I think about it, has anyone done a side-by-side between cloth and air pots?

 

[CBDMed]

The air gets injected as a by-product of his watering as it gets sucked in behind it as it falls. He's not actively injecting it on his own.

Ohhh.... I see!
You mean, as opposed to active injection!
I think I see what you are saying: as the water passes down in a sheet, it basically forces the old air out below it, which drags in fresh air behind it? Is that accurate?

And there's no air plenum as the perlite layers in his pots do not connect with each other.

Hmmm.....
@Bill284, thanks so much for your help!
May I please ask, do you put a ring of Perlite around the rim of your pots?
And does that (hypothetical, alleged) ring of Perlite around the rim of your pots (hypothetically, allegedly) connect all of your horizontal Perlite layers?
Or are your Perlite layers effectively disconnected from the outside air?

He does have one at the top edge of his pots to help with watering.

Ahhh.... so that is ONLY on the top layer??
That does NOT extend all the way down (connecting the other Perlite layers)??
(You are probably right, because you have been around the forum a lot longer than me, and I have not had time to read past page 8 of his thread...and I just got my questions on that answered, so I need to re-read that---"someday, over the rainbow!!" hahahaha!)

It seems to have more to do with the vacuum created by the falling water.

Sorry, you lost me there completely.
I did not track that at all.
I guess I need to wait for @Bill284 to help me understand how far down his Perlite rim ring goes...

 

[Bill284]

Ohhh.... I see!
You mean, as opposed to active injection!
I think I see what you are saying: as the water passes down in a sheet, it basically forces the old air out below it, which drags in fresh air behind it? Is that accurate?

Hmmm.....
@Bill284, thanks so much for your help!
May I please ask, do you put a ring of Perlite around the rim of your pots?
And does that (hypothetical, alleged) ring of Perlite around the rim of your pots (hypothetically, allegedly) connect all of your horizontal Perlite layers?
Or are your Perlite layers effectively disconnected from the outside air?

Ahhh.... so that is ONLY on the top layer??
That does NOT extend all the way down (connecting the other Perlite layers)??

Only the top layer is connected.
The rest have soil or coco in between the layers.
Top is for drainage.

(You are probably right, because you have been around the forum a lot longer than me, and I have not had time to read past page 8 of his thread...and I just got my questions on that answered, so I need to re-read that---"someday, over the rainbow!!" hahahaha!)

Sorry, you lost me there completely.
I did not track that at all.
I guess I need to wait for @Bill284 to help me understand how far down his Perlite rim ring goes...

Stay safe
Bill284

 

[CBDMed]

Only the top layer is connected.

Ahhhhhhhhh.................................................
That's different, then....

Top is for drainage.

Ahh, ok. I think I understand your "plunger" concept now, and how the Perlite ring works with it.
Thanks so much for explaining! And happy growing in your forest!

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, it looks like my initial greenhouse space will be 4m x 7m (like, basically 12' x 21').
I can add more later greenhouse space later, but I can do this much without attracting any attention, so it seems best to start with that (and then I can also grow other stuff out in the open air).

@Buds Buddy , may I please ask, are you growing photoperiods? Or autos?
And how much floor space do your SIPs take? (I.e., how big is their footprint at max?)
Thank you!

 

[CBDMed]

I'm a coco guy, but 19 including the 50 gallon are all soil.
My method works great in either.
Microbes, fungi and aeration, works in any pot.
But coco is my favorite.




Stay safe
Bill284

Ok, cool, thanks!
But one question, what do you do with your spent soil?
I don't imagine the Perlite breaks down as fast as you add it?
Or do you perhaps send the spent soil to the garden?

And I think you are using photoperiods?
So, about how big is the footprint on your plants (so I can plan my greenhouse space)?
(And sorry for this business of comparing It's not really polite!)
Thanks!

 

[Bill284]

Ok, cool, thanks!
But one question, what do you do with your spent soil?
I don't imagine the Perlite breaks down as fast as you add it?
Or do you perhaps send the spent soil to the garden?

And I think you are using photoperiods?
So, about how big is the footprint on your plants (so I can plan my greenhouse space)?
(And sorry for this business of comparing It's not really polite!)
Thanks!

It's all good no worries.
Soil and coco will get re used.
Bokashi will keep it viable.
I pull out the roots mix in Bokashi and let it sit a couple months minimum.
Then Reuse it.
I'm 10 by 20 =200 sq ft ÷ 25 = 8 sq ft / plant.
That's tight to move in.
10 / plant would be better, but in that range you'll be fine.
Ask away.




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Buds Buddy]

Ok, it looks like my initial greenhouse space will be 4m x 7m (like, basically 12' x 21').
I can add more later greenhouse space later, but I can do this much without attracting any attention, so it seems best to start with that (and then I can also grow other stuff out in the open air).

@Buds Buddy , may I please ask, are you growing photoperiods? Or autos?
And how much floor space do your SIPs take? (I.e., how big is their footprint at max?)
Thank you!

Photos,. Each plant can fill a 4x4 no problem.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Photos,. Each plant can fill a 4x4 no problem.

I'll post pics Saturday . I work in printing & it's election time so we work a lot of hours this month not leaving me much time for anything else.

 

[CBDMed]

It's all good no worries.
Soil and coco will get re used.
Bokashi will keep it viable.
I pull out the roots mix in Bokashi and let it sit a couple months minimum.
Then Reuse it.
I'm 10 by 20 =200 sq ft ÷ 25 = 8 sq ft / plant.
That's tight to move in.
10 / plant would be better, but in that range you'll be fine.
Ask away.




Stay safe
Bill284

Ahh, ok. Thank you!!
Only, sorry to be s.o s.l.o.w....
I reviewed the first few pages of your current thread.
It looks like 1" of Perlite on the bottom, 1" of Perlite in the middle, and then the Perlite ring on the outside, at the top?
So 2-1/2 each 1" layers of Perlite in a Solo cup??
So, that is not like half the cup worth of Perlite??
Or more like 1/3??
So, if you re-use that soil, it doesn't have like 1/3 to 1/2 Perlite in that soil??
What am I missing?

 

[CBDMed]

Photos,. Each plant can fill a 4x4 no problem.

Ahh, ok.
So maybe 12 x 28 isn't so huge as I thought.
But if a photo needs a 4x4, then maybe an auto in a SIP needs a 3x3??
(Unless Em is driving it, in which case it needs 5x5??)

 

[CBDMed]

I'll post pics Saturday . I work in printing & it's election time so we work a lot of hours this month not leaving me much time for anything else.

Uff!!
I hear that.
Happy printing!