SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[Pete Detroit]

Near as I can tell, the 'vent holes' around the bottom of the bucket provide an opportunity for "Air Gap" But no, it's a mystery. The 5Gal I'm starting to 'nibble harvest' (take buds as they ripen, play for an hour or so per evening for a few days, rather than a marathon session one LONG day just makes more sense, to me... ) Sure as hell took of, and one (of three) autos in grow two exploded. A 2nd Auto SEEMS to finally be digging in, the third seemed to be drowning.
So no, I seem not to have THAT science nailed down (and it may be a while) but the more traditional 'tank in' type DIYs seem to be winners, and are more in line w/ "the plan"
Urgh, Boo's funnel seems to be partially detached from the tank. Not MUCH motion, but some (and I'm NOT wiggling it! REALLY!!) so looks like THAT one will be a complete re-do before re-use...

But yeah, the 'external / tankless' style? all I can say is WTF, it cost NOTHING to try (well, other than poor drowned Zilla...)
(Who had a high collar pan >> holes bored high in the bucket, and LOW dirt level... Pix Any Day Now..

 

[Pete Detroit]

So with a SIPS system is there a cycle to the soil at all or does the soil stay exactly the same constantly when it comes to the amount of water in it? I was wondering if there was certain times of day or in certain stages when the plant would pull more water in than other times. Has anyone charted their reservoir levels on an hourly/daily/weekly usage? Also does the pot weight flucuate, as in some days when the reservoir is full is the pot heavier than other days when its full? Does the pot get heavier or lighter when myco is added? that sort of thing? Also from totally dry and almost wilted to a full reservoir and fully saturated a weight difference to see exactly how much water is held?

All good questions.
I'll share what I can, speaking from my experience, or understanding, or just BS speculation.
Your mileage (and all opinions / experience) may vary...
If you keep water in the rez, it establishes a gradient, from WET to moist, in the grow zone (ie, Bucket)
If you let it run dry, the gradient drops (in height) Figuring consumption on an hourly basis in interesting concept, I usually note "1 L 2x day" or 2L 3x / day" and be done w/ it. Yes, pot weight drops as water is consumed, but it gets heavier too, as more of hte water becomes plant mass. Myco weighs VERY little. The Root Ball, will way more, but it's consuming / replacing the dirt, so yes weight will go up, see above note on plant mass adding to pot weight. Using coffee cans as tanks, I had the oppurtunit to fill them before I drilled all the holes - they hold approx 1.75L I have since bought bigger coffee can...

 

[Azimuth]

The light bulb just came on--how do we explain his success if there is no air gap??

Pure luck?

But seriously, it has to be the extra air that's provided. He does it with extra holes around the pot (which I do as well with my smaller versions). The extra oxygen is what must speed up the plant metabolism. Pure hydro systems do it with injected air into the water, and cloth pots do it with microscopic holes in the fabric. What all these systems seem to have in common is extra air vs a normal pot.

I do think if an air void is added under the center root mass that would improve things even further, but my supposition from the jump was that the biggest secret to these things is the extra air (air gap for most of us).

 

[CBDMed]

As for the KNF/Jadam nutes, it may very well be that the roots can't access those nutrients directly for some reason, but need the middle man of the microbes to assist. I was kind of surprised by my lack of success since the KNF and Jadam nutes are already broken down and pre-digested by the microbes as part of the extraction process.

All I know is that even my FAA (fish amino acid), my most powerful organic nute, was ineffective at reversing a nitrogen deficiency when given through the rez. So I stopped feeding that way and returned to feeding from above and all was fine.

WOW this thread moves fast!!!!
Last week was a killer, so I had to drop out...and now I come back there are a dozen more pages!!
Makes sense what you are saying ...

 

[CBDMed]

There are many types of yellow tip yellowing, all indicating different things, so be careful in how you react to that general condition. Many people associate the yellow tip, the small mini triangle type, with burning. It is funny though, that most true organically fed plants exhibit this peculiar condition. It turns out that the same signal that is sent out to the microbes to shut off the supply, that thank you, we have had enough for now... That same signal is what causes the mini triangle indication at the tips of the leaves. Your tip situation looks different and is commonly associated with potassium deficiency, or as we have discussed maybe not an actual deficiency of potassium, but a lockout instead.

Give things two or three watering cycles to settle out and I think you'll see a big difference by cutting back on the nitrogen at this point.

Muchísimas gracias, doña Emilya!

 

[CBDMed]

Should one already put some water in the bucket when seeding? although some will accumulate from just topfeeding, it's just if the root senses a nutrient vat down there me thinks it will head that way with great haste, direction and purpose.

also I think I'm going to fill mine like the picture..hydro pebbles & soil, seems to make the most sense to me roots growing into a spacious, oxygen rich moist environment, gonna wash those and soak them in ph'd rhizotonic solution, and I'm gonna make a little bill284 area for developing the seedling the first days topwatering.. and it's gonna look like a zen rock garden .. I'll have everything after next weekend and then we can go again! same light, same strain, same nutes.. the difference will be the watering pot vs soil perlite grow bag.

@Fenderbender , sorry I was gone for a bit, trying to catch up quickly!
It seems there are many strategies, and probably all work.
I fill my rez, let it soak up for a day, then top it again.
At this point, my soil is lightly damp on the surface.
(If the rez is half full, it will be damp an inch down.)

Then I tuck 12-hour floating-soaked seeds in and spray LIGHTLY.
I only mist-damp to keep it moist.
Once the seed is awakened, all it needs is to stay moist.
Once the cotys are up, I don't mist any more.

It seems there are many successful strategies, but my thought is that if the goal is to train the plant to take advantage of the moisture gradient, then let it start from the start??
Seems to be working. No one bats 1000, but this seems to be getting pretty close.
And I am on autos right now, so this helps to avoid stalling due to over-watering.
I hope that helps someone somehow.

 

[CBDMed]

sensing a theme that it’s just too slow uptake using the foot or wick to feed the plant or recharge microbes that way…. apparently that must be top fed to work properly

Not. You can top-water SIPs but they are designed to use a fill-tube.
Self-watering planters you top water, and then the res catches the rest.
They say SIPs are best, but @Krissi Carbone has some gorgeous sativas grown in self-watering planters!
@Emilya Green and @Azimuth also top-water in their nutes, so both work great!

I drop some mosquito bits down the feed tube to help keep res headed in the right direction

Haven't had a problem with skeeters but maybe your climate is diffren'?

weird tip on rice hulls but the last batch I soaked in Neem oil water as preventative but my bulk 50 lb bag must be contaminated since that neem soaked batch sprouted soil mites out the wazoo… about 5 days after top dressing with the hulls they were line dancing on bucket rims, tiny white mites pretty dang fast for their size…. very similar to hypoapsis miles predator mites

Oy va voi!! You gotta stop 'em when they get to the line dancing, or else soon they will set up the mosh pit!
You must have a different climate, because I cooked 'em six weeks and don't see mites...

Also, does anyone ever add Neem Oil when they mix and cook, to get it soaked up into the plants?

kinda expect that it’s common for bulk rice hulls to carry pests

I am finally starting to get why everyone says to cook for at least three weeks, regardless!

 

[CBDMed]

 

[Krissi Carbone]

Hey guys and gals. I mentioned in my journals I am trying to catch up. Had company and have been absent for nearly a week.

Just dropping off some Day 9 Flower pics. Now at 100% under this @Cultiuana CT-720 light, the girls are drinking faster and these 5gl self feeds are drying out by Day 3 after feed.

I've got two tents going now but I only had time for pics of one tent this morning.

Growing like weeds in these pots these weeds lol

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana flower grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana flower grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

 

[CBDMed]

Pure luck?

But seriously, it has to be the extra air that's provided. He does it with extra holes around the pot (which I do as well with my smaller versions). The extra oxygen is what must speed up the plant metabolism. Pure hydro systems do it with injected air into the water, and cloth pots do it with microscopic holes in the fabric. What all these systems seem to have in common is extra air vs a normal pot.

I do think if an air void is added under the center root mass that would improve things even further, but my supposition from the jump was that the biggest secret to these things is the extra air (air gap for most of us).

Well, I ask because I have lots of Latino friends who might balk at building a SIP (due to complexity / headaches), but if I tell them simply, "Drill some holes in the side of a 5G bucket and set it in a dish of water", they would grow monster plants.
So I was just curious how much difference there is in growth between, say, a SIP, and a LlamaBucket.
'Cuz if the LlamaBucket grows *almost as well as a SIP, but is easier for your average José to construct....

 

[CBDMed]

Pure luck?

But seriously, it has to be the extra air that's provided. He does it with extra holes around the pot (which I do as well with my smaller versions). The extra oxygen is what must speed up the plant metabolism. Pure hydro systems do it with injected air into the water, and cloth pots do it with microscopic holes in the fabric. What all these systems seem to have in common is extra air vs a normal pot.

I do think if an air void is added under the center root mass that would improve things even further, but my supposition from the jump was that the biggest secret to these things is the extra air (air gap for most of us).

Ok, well, thanks!
I guess I will have to run some experiments, SIPs vs. LlamaBuckets, as time wears on.
For right now, we have another deadline tonight, so I hope to be back later...
Thanks for a great thread!

 

[Gee64]

All good questions.
I'll share what I can, speaking from my experience, or understanding, or just BS speculation.
Your mileage (and all opinions / experience) may vary...
If you keep water in the rez, it establishes a gradient, from WET to moist, in the grow zone (ie, Bucket)
If you let it run dry, the gradient drops (in height) Figuring consumption on an hourly basis in interesting concept, I usually note "1 L 2x day" or 2L 3x / day" and be done w/ it. Yes, pot weight drops as water is consumed, but it gets heavier too, as more of hte water becomes plant mass. Myco weighs VERY little. The Root Ball, will way more, but it's consuming / replacing the dirt, so yes weight will go up, see above note on plant mass adding to pot weight. Using coffee cans as tanks, I had the oppurtunit to fill them before I drilled all the holes - they hold approx 1.75L I have since bought bigger coffee can...

Thanks Pete. Thanks for the info. I guess my question should have been a little more specific. I was wondering if the plant and the rhizosphere could control the uptake of water or if it was only capillary action. If the life in the pot controlled it, would it be heavier at lights out? for example, or just before lights on? or did it cycle during the day? In nature high and low pressure systems drive air down into the soil and pull air up out of the soil causing the soil to breathe, I was wondering if plants could do this to some degree as well with water, as raising and lowering the water table will cause air to get sucked in or pushed out. As for the myco I wasn't really referring to the weight of the myco,as its just a pinch of dust, more to the water retention properties it has when it grows, so does adding myco add extra weight to the pot once it gets established. I guess my myco question would be " After adding myco, do you notice a steady weight gain to the pot, above its regular growing weight gain, as the myco establishes itself in the pot". I think this system could be a really good opportunity to find a plants rhythm, and then cater to it. VPD for the soil. If you paid really close attention you could possibly even get an approximation of how much CO2 the plant pulled from the air as all other ingredients came from the pot so any added growing weight has to come from the air and the extra water the plant holds but with this system it would be very easy to track the extra water. Then there is ambient temperatures... If you lower your room temp but adjust your light and/or humidity to keep the VPD the same, does the plants water intake increase/decrease? I am curious now, this is a great science opportunity, and I will play with it over the winter, but was just hoping maybe some of you had already tried and scienced a few of these things. Food comes from air and water so the more water a plant moves the more nutes it has to photosynthesize. In theory if you dialed this all in you could easily recognize the threshold where adding supplemental CO2 would start to be beneficial, or when your light became the limiting factor, and likely a whole lot more as well. Then there is the calcium factor... Calcium opens up your soil, so after a CalMag treatment does the pot get heavier or lighter? logic would say lighter as open soil holds more air but... nature defies logic all the time and we get things wrong as a result. Water is heavier than roots by volume so as your roots fill the pot they consume space. Does the pot of a plant with a full rootball hold as much water as a pot of a plant with a young rootball? So many questions lol

 

[013]

Not. You can top-water SIPs but they are designed to use a fill-tube.
Self-watering planters you top water, and then the res catches the rest.
They say SIPs are best, but @Krissi Carbone has some gorgeous sativas grown in self-watering planters!
@Emilya Green and @Azimuth also top-water in their nutes, so both work great!

Haven't had a problem with skeeters but maybe your climate is diffren'?

Oy va voi!! You gotta stop 'em when they get to the line dancing, or else soon they will set up the mosh pit!
You must have a different climate, because I cooked 'em six weeks and don't see mites...

Also, does anyone ever add Neem Oil when they mix and cook, to get it soaked up into the plants?

I am finally starting to get why everyone says to cook for at least three weeks, regardless!

Thanks El Gringuito!!!

Totally my bad…. what I was trying to articulate is: that’s it’s too slow on uptake to feed nutrients via the fill tube and then rely on the wick or foot to transfer to root zone. Any nutes and IPM treatments should be top watered directly into the substrate not the fill tube

miscommunication on my part…. I put mosquito dunks down fill tube into the SIP res to ward off any fungus gnats…. since they smell wet, decaying soil and throw down an orgy

yes I don’t normally cook my rice hulls when used for top dress / ground cover, but I do slow cook them into my soils. However I did soak the rice hulls overnight in a strong dose of Neem water and it didn’t slow down the critters.

I’ve fought soil mites before and they are hard AF to get rid of. The good news is most species of soil mites work the soil and ignore the plant biomass… visually they appear very similar to the hypoapsis miles species that I purchased for predator mites…

defs not my first rodeo w/soil mites but they don’t appear climb the stalk. It looks as if all the trichs fell off and landed at the stalk but that’s a soil mite orgy caught in the act. Freaky but check it out….

edit to add: if you buy a 50 pound bale of rice hulls like I did then you better think twice… i will use turkey pans and gas grill to sterilize the next batch of rice hulls

899FEC55-B51B-45F5-9474-2B78FB88C065.jpeg

• 013
• Dec 7, 2022

 

[Gee64]

Has anyone tried filling a res so the water table comes to the soil surface and dropping in a fresh cutting to see if it will root? Maybe put a small dome over it? or not?

 

[Gidorah]

Hey guys and gals. I mentioned I'm my journals I am trying to catch up. Had company and have been absent for nearly a week.

Just dropping off some Day 9 Flower pics. Now at 100% under this @Cultiuana CT-720 light, the girls are drinking faster and these 5gl self feeds are drying out by Day 3 after feed.

I've got two tents going now but I only had time for pics of one tent this morning.

Growing like weeds in these pots these weeds lol

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana flower grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

Cultiuana CT-720 Winter Grow 22-23

• Krissi Carbone
• Dec 7, 2022
• ct-720 grow light cultiuana flower grow journal stretch

DAYS 64/65 DAY 9 FLOWER
I49 seeds Gorilla Glue Super Lemon Haze and Zombie Death x 2...

Ladies are looking spectacular krissi! Looks like I gotta find your journal and see your green thumbs in action. SIP's for the win!

 

[Azimuth]

Ok, well, thanks!
I guess I will have to run some experiments, SIPs vs. LlamaBuckets, as time wears on.
For right now, we have another deadline tonight, so I hope to be back later...
Thanks for a great thread!

I think all of the added air strategies grow better plants. Then it's a matter of degrees.

 

[Azimuth]

Has anyone tried filling a res so the water table comes to the soil surface and dropping in a fresh cutting to see if it will root? Maybe put a small dome over it? or not?

I tried rooting cuttings in a normal SIP but the soil stayed too moist and they rotted.

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks Pete. Thanks for the info. I guess my question should have been a little more specific. I was wondering if the plant and the rhizosphere could control the uptake of water or if it was only capillary action. If the life in the pot controlled it, would it be heavier at lights out? for example, or just before lights on? or did it cycle during the day? In nature high and low pressure systems drive air down into the soil and pull air up out of the soil causing the soil to breathe, I was wondering if plants could do this to some degree as well with water, as raising and lowering the water table will cause air to get sucked in or pushed out. As for the myco I wasn't really referring to the weight of the myco,as its just a pinch of dust, more to the water retention properties it has when it grows, so does adding myco add extra weight to the pot once it gets established. I guess my myco question would be " After adding myco, do you notice a steady weight gain to the pot, above its regular growing weight gain, as the myco establishes itself in the pot". I think this system could be a really good opportunity to find a plants rhythm, and then cater to it. VPD for the soil. If you paid really close attention you could possibly even get an approximation of how much CO2 the plant pulled from the air as all other ingredients came from the pot so any added growing weight has to come from the air and the extra water the plant holds but with this system it would be very easy to track the extra water. Then there is ambient temperatures... If you lower your room temp but adjust your light and/or humidity to keep the VPD the same, does the plants water intake increase/decrease? I am curious now, this is a great science opportunity, and I will play with it over the winter, but was just hoping maybe some of you had already tried and scienced a few of these things. Food comes from air and water so the more water a plant moves the more nutes it has to photosynthesize. In theory if you dialed this all in you could easily recognize the threshold where adding supplemental CO2 would start to be beneficial, or when your light became the limiting factor, and likely a whole lot more as well. Then there is the calcium factor... Calcium opens up your soil, so after a CalMag treatment does the pot get heavier or lighter? logic would say lighter as open soil holds more air but... nature defies logic all the time and we get things wrong as a result. Water is heavier than roots by volume so as your roots fill the pot they consume space. Does the pot of a plant with a full rootball hold as much water as a pot of a plant with a young rootball? So many questions lol

@LKABudMan does a lot of record keeping so perhaps he could better answer your questions.

Me? I keep it pretty simple and don't try to maximize everything out. Would be interesting to see your experiments if you do them though. Post them here if you do!

 

[Gee64]

@LKABudMan does a lot of record keeping so perhaps he could better answer your questions.

Me? I keep it pretty simple and don't try to maximize everything out. Would be interesting to see your experiments if you do them though. Post them here if you do!

I was going to take the winter off from the tent but now I have purpose again...MUHAHAHAHA.... I will definitely share what I try.

 

[Gee64]

I tried rooting cuttings in a normal SIP but the soil stayed too moist and they rotted.

Just curious Azi...did you dome the cutting or leave it open to atmosphere? and was your soil organic or synthetic or inert like coco?