Drcannabi's BudMaster GOD - Organic Soil - Venom OG - Autopots

[bobrown14]

I love to discuss "sciency" topics. I get that it would "appear" the bleached buds are not producing energy as efficiently as other parts of the plant that have or are more chlorophyll. However that is an assumption and not based on science.

Here's another question: How do white caladiums live... they perform photosynthesis just like any other green plant but all the leaves are white! What happens with them is they "appear" to be white but perform photosynthesis perfectly well.

Some plants have little or no chlorophyll in the non-green areas, but many others have changed the architecture of their leaf cell layers in the non-green areas,, creating refraction effects that make the leaves appear white, but don't significantly change their photosynthetic efficiency (Sheue et al.) In fact, Arum italicum white areas actually have higher efficiency in certain light conditions! (La Rocca et al.)

link to abstract: Variegation in Arum italicum leaves. A structural–functional study


So getting back to the question at hand. There are plenty of examples in nature and in the greenhouse where white parts of green plants actually perform photosynthesis as good or better than their green cousins. Many of which have been manipulated by humans.

There's this pesky little thing I keep stumbling on called the "scientific method" - Blow a hole in a hypothesis and that is all that is required to send us back to the drawing board and come up with a new hypothesis. Then test ... and on it goes.

I submit that the white tips of the buds are indeed performing photosynthesis and could even be MORE efficiently performing this function. I do not have the facts to back that up, only an unanswered question and observations of other plants that have been tested to perform well even when they seem to have little or no chlorophyll.

There is this fact... the bud tips that are white are healthy and living.

 

[Mr. Krip]

Interesting discussion but think I have to come down on the side of Shiggs on this one. It's my understanding that "bleached" parts of the plant do NOT photosynthesize.

The article posted on leaf variegation is interesting, but relates to a specific species of Arum Italicum that exhibit:

The presence of pale-green flecks on leaves (speckling) is a frequent character among herbaceous species from shady places and is usually due to local loosening of palisade tissue

These PALE-GREEN fleck were shown to have LOWER chlorophyll content.

However, other studies (the one below is from UCLA) show that total absence of "plastid pigments" causes part of a leaf or stem to have WHITE (not "pale-green") patches, also called, "variegation" and that these WHITE patches are areas where no chlorophyll is present so they are UNABLE to photosynthesize:

Variegated Leaves

Total absence of plastid pigments causes a sector of a leaf or stem to have white patches. This condition is termed variegation (Metrosideros). Variegation is produced when there is a cell mutation (cytological chimera), and all cells produced from that mutant mother cell lack the pigments, either because plastids are not present or the plastid cannot complete the manufacture of the pigment apparatus. White, therefore, is where color is missing. The zones where chloroplasts are not present are zones where no photosynthesis will occur, hence a variegated leaf has a lowered potential to fix carbon dioxide into sugars, and as a consequence, a variegated plant also tends to grow more slowly.

Variegated leaves occur rarely in nature but are extremely common among indoor and outdoor ornamentals, where they have been saved as horticultural oddities. Species with variegated individuals are sometimes found in the understory of tropical rain forest, and this habitat is the source of a number of variegated house plants. The appearance of variegation in the tropical forest understory, if not simply by accident, has not been given a plausible explanation.

Some variegated ornamentals have only a fringe of white around the leaf (Example: Pittosporum), sometimes irregular dots (Examples: a bromeliad and Begonia) and spots (Examples: Dieffenbachia, an aloe, and an orchid), sometimes broad panels of white (Examples: a bromeliad, shell ginger, Pisonia, and a fig), and even an occasional leaf that is totally achlorophyllous (white; Example: Hedera helix). Among monocotyledons, strips of stem internode may also be achlorophyllous (Example: variegated sugar cane). On a single plant, you can observe leaves with all different degrees of variegation, but a plant may also produce individual leaves or entire shoots that are all green (Examples: Coprosma, Abutilon, Euonymus, and Bougainvillea), and which did not involve mother cells with mutant plastids. On the same plant, totally green leaves tend to be much larger than the variegated ones. Some very colorful variegated horticultural forms occur when the leaf cells can produce vacuolar pigments, such as anthocyanins, which then produce patches of pink where chlorophyll is absent (Example: Acalypha).

Out of the tropics have arisen some very unusual variegated forms (Example: a gesneriad). One of the most photographed is a species of Calathea, which has patches of green, surrounded by white tissue resembling a set of leaves within a single leaf blade.

It is easy to dismiss variegation as an uninteresting series of mutant forms, rare in nature, but there are some plants living in full-sun habitats that possess variegated leaves. Examples are certain species of clover (Trifolium), possessing a V-shaped clear mark on each leaflet. Among tropical epiphytes are numerous species of bromeliads and certain orchids. Typically, variegated individuals can persist in nature via cloning, i.e., vegetative propagation by forming new plants from buds, as in bromeliads, orchids, aloes, and agaves, rather than via seeds, which would necessarily be a rare event.

Many leaves have white or nongreen veins, causing the leaf to appear variegated (Examples: an aroid, Sanchezia, striped inch plant, and milk thistle). The white vein is caused by the absence of chlorophyll-bearing cells above or below the conducting tissues of the vein. Most commonly, no stomates are found directly on a vein, so the cells, incapable of receiving adequate carbon dioxide, are not equipped for photosynthesis. Leaves with white veins should not be classified as variegated, although they are sometimes also grown as horticultural oddities.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Bobrown that is quite interesting but you must see that the plant you are talking about has refraction effects that make it "appear" white. That means it still has chlorophyll. In cannabis the standard healthy plant does not have these refractory structures so if the bud is white it does not contain chlorophyll. Unless the plant was able to mutate to have different refractory processes overnight this must be true.

The aurum italicum is a shade plant so has evolved to have a high photosynthetic rate in shaded areas. Thsi would not be the case with cannabis which requires a high intensity light and rate of photosynthesis. The paper was basically saying that in shade the lower chlorophyll leaf with a different structure was more efficient for this particular case of low light. But in direct sun the high chlorophyll cannabis leaf is king.(or queen lol)

 

[bobrown14]

Hey Shig and Krip... my intention with the example mentioned was to point out that "some" plants that have white portions "can" photosynthesize. Do we have test data that shows a cannabis plant that went white does NOT photosynthesize?

That's my first question.

2nd question is:

The white tips are healthy plant tissue or they wouldn't be right? Without photosynthesis as you argue, how does that plant tissue remain healthy??

Friendly discussion/learning experience for me is my motive nothing more.

Sorry for not getting back sooner been on vacation again!

Cheers

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Hey bobrown.
The parts that are white on the plant you mentioned still have chlorophyll they just have a structure that hides the green appearance. The buds in a bleached tip do not have chlorophyll. There is no mechanism to hide it. So if chlorophyll was there it would show as green. In all plants there is no substitute for chlorophyll as far as photosynthesis goes. No chlorophyll no photosynthesis.

So basically that growing tip is like someone on life support. It can't feed itself, it must be fed by other parts of the plant. In a variegated green plant the parts of the leaf with no chlorophyll do not photosynthesize: in this case the bleached bud is like an "induced variegation". So then how do we know that it is not healthy? Pretty simple. There are not any (that I know of) strains of cannabis that are naturally white. Even on the buds. The buds are meant to photosynthesize. Over the course of millions of years spontaneous mutations in the chlorophyll producing gene are bound to have happened. By chance mutations happen in any gene over time. What is significant is that we don't see any surviving members today. The plants that have a mutation in that gene do not survive to release their mutated genetics to the next round of offspring. It is what we call a lethal gene. If th re were no selimmediate drive pressure for buds to photosynthesize we would see examples in nature of just such an effect. But we don't. Which means that photosynthesis in the buds is a beneficial and probably necessary function.

Btw I love friendly discourse. I think this is a great one.

 

[bobrown14]

Hey shiggs ... man I don't know yet about that. I've got to do some research. This is nothing new for sure ...

As far as healthy or not or on life support, here's a pic of one of those white buds up close. I've had them and they look like this:

Trichomes look perfectly normal to me there in the pic, smoke report verifies this. I will grow some more this round... what happened to me was I got the white buds when my COB lamp with focus lenses on and pretty close caused exactly what you see here ^^^.

"To me" that pic looks like there are a lot more trichomes staked up on the white calyx/leaf structures. IF this is true, it may be that the plants have built up something similar in the cell structure similar to the white plant I pointed to in an earlier post. Maybe there really is granum there but covered up by something else in the cell structure the plant decided to add for a protection from the intensity of light??

It would be really cool if we could get some of those white buds tested at a lab or look at the plant cells under a microscope.

Maybe there is chlorophyll in there but something more that is added to compensate for the light intensity that the plants are supplying (carotenoids) to protect the bud and reflect more light instead of absorbing it.

Could it be this is the plants response to light "overload". Its a response ... it may be ALL plants have this ability which is why we don't see it in the genes. It's already there?

We are not the first to see this happening I'm sure of it.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

No we are not the first. There are many posts on LED bleaching. The reason I don't think it would be an adaptation is that we only see this kind of response with blurples or light intensities never found in nature. The plant never would have had a chance to develop a response because it would never have seen this kind of light in nature. So there would be no reason to develop or keep a trait like that. It would not be a trait in all plants because genes don't get maintained if they are never used. They get mutations and there is no selective pressure to keep them.

So again the white plant referenced developed the white leaf structure to get more energy out of low light in the shade. Put it in the sun and it would die. It's a completely different environment than the one that cannabis grows in. So that precludes it from being a gene that is shared between the different species. And to make any structure in a plant it Must be genetically encoded. No gene, no structure.

That bud shot shows trichomes yes, my bleached buds had them too. But not more than other Unbleached tops. And in my experience they did not carry the same level of terps. And they browned quite quickly on storage.

The much much more likely scenario is that we are hitting a plant with different light spectrums than it is used to receiving. Something about Blurple light is either suppressing chlorophyll production, or there is something in the missing spectrum that is needed to produce chlorophyll in intense light. Or there is something in the missing spectrum that the plant uses to measure light intensity and so the plant isn't responding correctly. An analogy would be IR lasers. IR lasers are not detected as being intense by our eyes. You can be blinded by an IR laser because your pupils fail to dilate. They just aren't programmed to respond to laser levels of IR spectrum being beamed into them.

When I got bleached tips from my blurples I thought they were interesting but in the end the herb produced in the bleached areas was subpar in strength and terps. Now if I see one developing, I immediately supercrop the bud to avoid it spreading. I do like your idea of it being a genetic encoded response to light being too intense. In this case I can see the plant preventing chlorophyll synthesis in order to stop a bud from growing closer to a light source that is too intense for the plant.

 

[Mr. Krip]

I would also contribute to this great discussion that many parts of a plant may be healthy, but have no chlorophyll so do not photosynthesize.

In other words, that bleached bud can still be healthy and have high THC levels but not be able to convert light to supply energy to the rest of the plant and, in fact, is drawing energy away from these other areas because it can't produce the energy to sustain itself.

 

[bobrown14]

I found a few studies about this phenomenon not just with cannabis. Remember lots and lots other plants have trichomes for sure.

My take is we humans have a symbiotic relationship with the cannabis plant for both medicine and fiber. The plant adapts as we humans do. The plant depends on humans for cultivation. Is it a manifestation of that adaption to please the cultivator, OR mutant genes?

Here's an interesting pic of a plant that I'm currently growing with LED pretty intense light and we can see the buds are getting pretty close to hash tips... could it be in this case I let this go longer and the buds get completely covered with trichomes and the bud will "look" white even tho there's definitely chlorophyll there but getting covered up to protect the reproductive bits of the flower??

This is a low down bud 1/2 way down and flopped over but staked up, not the top cola. The whole plant looks like its about to have all white calyx covered in trichomes to the point they are all white. First run with this cultivar ... her sisters under different light do not exhibit this trait.

More questions ... more reading.

Hopefully we are not hijacking this thread - I do love interesting conversation 110% about this plant how to grow it and cultivate. So Doc reps for getting this thing started. Hope to see you back here real soon.

Shiggs.. hey bud it's a lot easier to ask questions than to answer them. I get that. In this discourse I'm searching for answers not just asking question. I find more questions than answers with biology ... Why I like engineering/physics... questions get explained with math. Should be the same with biology.. I keep looking for the link. The more I look I begin to see we are on a new frontier.

It's kinda cool really.... reminds me of the 49er's in Cali... back in the day, or Star Trek; a new green frontier and we are here, it's amazing really.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

I found a few studies about this phenomenon not just with cannabis. Remember lots and lots other plants have trichomes for sure.

My take is we humans have a symbiotic relationship with the cannabis plant for both medicine and fiber. The plant adapts as we humans do. The plant depends on humans for cultivation. Is it a manifestation of that adaption to please the cultivator, OR mutant genes?

Here's an interesting pic of a plant that I'm currently growing with LED pretty intense light and we can see the buds are getting pretty close to hash tips... could it be in this case I let this go longer and the buds get completely covered with trichomes and the bud will "look" white even tho there's definitely chlorophyll there but getting covered up to protect the reproductive bits of the flower??

This is a low down bud 1/2 way down and flopped over but staked up, not the top cola. The whole plant looks like its about to have all white calyx covered in trichomes to the point they are all white. First run with this cultivar ... her sisters under different light do not exhibit this trait.

More questions ... more reading.

Hopefully we are not hijacking this thread - I do love interesting conversation 110% about this plant how to grow it and cultivate. So Doc reps for getting this thing started. Hope to see you back here real soon.

Shiggs.. hey bud it's a lot easier to ask questions than to answer them. I get that. In this discourse I'm searching for answers not just asking question. I find more questions than answers with biology ... Why I like engineering/physics... questions get explained with math. Should be the same with biology.. I keep looking for the link. The more I look I begin to see we are on a new frontier.

It's kinda cool really.... reminds me of the 49er's in Cali... back in the day, or Star Trek; a new green frontier and we are here, it's amazing really.

Bobrown, what you have there is not light bleaching but one of the prettiest buds I have seen in a long time! Notice how it is all over and not just in the part hit by light at the tip. Gorgeous.Let her go as long as the trichs let you. You will still see the beautiful colors beneath. Then enter her in NOTM!

 

[Mr. Krip]

Agreed! BEAUTIFUL Bud, Brother!!!

 

[TheBlaze]

Yeah, that is an exceptional nug! No word of lies

By the way... where the hell is the good doctor?

 

[bobrown14]

Bobrown, what you have there is not light bleaching but one of the prettiest buds I have seen in a long time! Notice how it is all over and not just in the part hit by light at the tip. Gorgeous.Let her go as long as the trichs let you. You will still see the beautiful colors beneath. Then enter her in NOTM!

Yeah thanks guys.. couldn't have done that without Doc... He turned me on to the Autopot System That plant is HSO Black Dog. She WAS in flower for 69 days ... I just chopped her this AM. I had a dream last night that I let her go too long and she started seeding..

We were away out of country (Cana-da) for 37 of those 69 days and most of them were down the stretch. AutoPots FTW.. there were a few flowers but they were small, went away and came back to that pretty much. The buds were all fallen over 2 weeks ago when we got back and I had them staked/wired.. buds falling over the wires. I need a bigger boat.. errr wait. I just did a test smoke...

Doc where ever you are.

 

[Canobud]

Woooooow. That is gorgeous, sir.


Sent from my iPad using 420 Magazine Mobile App

 

[drcannabi]

Hello my friends! I'm back from vacation and feeling ready to GROW! I've been getting caught up with work for the last couple days and I'm ready to give my final assessment of the Rare Dankness - Venom OG. Thanks to all for the knowledge and discussion about Hash Tips/Bleached Buds/Photo-everything I wish I had had half the drive you guys (Bo, Shiggs, Krypt, Blaze, Cano, and anyone else I missed). This place is awesome! I'll catch up with all your journeys this weekend...

 

[TheBlaze]

Good to have you back Doc!

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Hey doc! We were just keeping the place cozy for ya! I just got some Bodhi new gear called Joystick (wifi x snow lotus). I also found a source of the last wifi Seeds! Only a few in stock. PM inbound.

 

[MagicJim]

Hey doc! We were just keeping the place cozy for ya! I just got some Bodhi new gear called Joystick (wifi x snow lotus). I also found a source of the last wifi Seeds! Only a few in stock. PM inbound.

Now this is news. PM sent

 

[drcannabi]

Shiggs that joystick looks amazing. Where did you find it? Can't find it in any of my regular banks. The space monkey looks awesome too (gorilla glue 4 x white lotus).

The WiFi from relentless will be substantially different from the OGR gear. Not saying it will be bad just different. There are still some White Fire Alien packs around. That's OGRs version of WiFi regs. It would be interesting to see a side by side.

To answer your question about the sour diesel, it was a freebie from cali connection. It's my first CC strain I've grown. Very vigorous plant in veg. 3x the growth of the Dinachem in the same cabinet. I'm constantly cutting her back.


I'll post the Venom OG smoke report tonight. Still buried with work.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Shiggs that joystick looks amazing. Where did you find it? Can't find it in any of my regular banks. The space monkey looks awesome too (gorilla glue 4 x white lotus).

The WiFi from relentless will be substantially different from the OGR gear. Not saying it will be bad just different. There are still some White Fire Alien packs around. That's OGRs version of WiFi regs. It would be interesting to see a side by side.

To answer your question about the sour diesel, it was a freebie from cali connection. It's my first CC strain I've grown. Very vigorous plant in veg. 3x the growth of the Dinachem in the same cabinet. I'm constantly cutting her back.


I'll post the Venom OG smoke report tonight. Still buried with work.

PM inbound