Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL - LED

[Rascio]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Looks like ypur plants and your plans are coming along beautifully.

Been thinking about living soil and no-till gardening. One of the things that confuses me about no till:

What do you think would be harmed by remixing and adjusting the levels of organics and rock dusts between grows? I understand why its a good thing outdoors, but inside, in pots?

Just curious.

Then I was thinking some more about profiles of untilled soil. Within the humus layer there must be all kinds of gradients that arise over the years, with partially decomposed plant and animal wastes in the upper layers, then material thats been eaten by worms then this then that

So im wondering if some people intentionally create and maintain gradients of soil components when buiding a living soil. For example, one might concentrate rock dusts in the soil that will go at the bottom of the pot, and organic material in the upper layers, with structural components uniform.

Do you think that such gradients help plants grow and produce?

Just a little thought experiment, since my only experimental subject is one tiny (but so beautiful) sprout.

Have a happy day!

 

[bassclef]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

One for my list. My favorite type of high.

If you like the "get'r done" type of meds give old faithful Jack Herer a try. I've battled ADD for years and this has always always always been my go to. As a kid they perscribed me meth pills(ritalin) and I hated it so much I would hide them under my tounge and spit em out at the bus stop.

Later in life I kind of self taught myself that the right kind of cannabis could truly help me study, focus, and basically get shit done. I stumbled on JH years and years ago and never looked back. In fact when I started growing this was the one I had to grow myself right away.

I found it extremely comforting that when more medical knowledge on cannabis was introduced Jack Herer was listed as a go to for ADD. The sweet peppery smoke is unmistakeable to any other buds i've ever tried. When you take a rip of JH you know what it is.

It's a legend for a reason. Do love me some green crack though.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Looks like ypur plants and your plans are coming along beautifully.

Been thinking about living soil and no-till gardening. One of the things that confuses me about no till:

What do you think would be harmed by remixing and adjusting the levels of organics and rock dusts between grows? I understand why its a good thing outdoors, but inside, in pots?

Just curious.

Then I was thinking some more about profiles of untilled soil. Within the humus layer there must be all kinds of gradients that arise over the years, with partially decomposed plant and animal wastes in the upper layers, then material thats been eaten by worms then this then that

So im wondering if some people intentionally create and maintain gradients of soil components when buiding a living soil. For example, one might concentrate rock dusts in the soil that will go at the bottom of the pot, and organic material in the upper layers, with structural components uniform.

Do you think that such gradients help plants grow and produce?

Just a little thought experiment, since my only experimental subject is one tiny (but so beautiful) sprout.

Have a happy day!

Actually Rascio, tilling the soil outdoors is just as damaging to the SFW as tilling indoors. The Dust Bowl experience of the 1930s was an object lesson on the dangers of tilling the land that we, as a society, choose not to hear. Just because it's the way men have done it for centuries doesn't mean it's the correct approach. Before we started using plows the process was a simple hole for the seed or small seedling and let the soil take over.

When you disturb the soil by tilling and amending between grows you rip apart a soil community that has taken months to develop. You're destroying months of microscopic fibrous connections in the mycorrhizal and disrupting communications and distribution systems that will now need to be rebuilt from the ground up again. But here's the important part: it's not necessary to recycle the soil between grows. If you notice signs of some deficiency or you know you're going to be growing a temperamental strain you simply plan to amend in advance of that. You can even feed the worm bin to adjust resource availability enhanced by the worms.

The stratigraphic approach has been tried, most notably by The Rev with his layers and spikes. This particular recipe I work with is designed to maximize container growing in the no-till style. One of the things they discovered early on was that the soil performed more efficiently with a homogenous mix of components, being careful to get the most uniform distribution as reasonably possible. Not something to obsess over, to be sure. The minerals in the starting mix break down over years and you are constantly replenishing the stores with teas, drenches and top dressings, continuously adding to the biomass.

The interesting thing about all that matter in the soil is that the plant can ask for whatever it needs and the SFW will find it in there and process it. They have been uniquely evolved to manage the soil resources within their plant community. When you have the ratios in reasonable balance and are being thoughtful about amending you can maintain balance for years of continuous cycles and the soil grows stronger and healthier as you go along. I've read testimony after testimony of converted growers absolutely stunned at the way their well-maintained no-tills perform after a couple cycles. I'll tell you though, the real secret to a successful no-till is the quality of the vermicompost, so If you don't raise your own worms invest in the best and freshest you can find. And get worms in your pots.

This idea of "feed the soil not the plant" is a very new concept to many of us. How sad that we have "evolved" so far from our natural roots when people would make offerings back to the soil in return for the bounty they'd received in the harvest, a reflection of the give and take exchange that apparently happens at every level of life in our universe. Now we just take. In my tiny closet we're trying to make a subtle change. How wonderful that it turned out to be such an effective change.

 

[B A R]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

I'd like to invite anyone interested to our new journal;

New City Grower 4.0
And thanxx Sue for giving me permission to post an invite here. By the way, I tried your Roasted Bud recipe last night with some Sour D and let me tell you; it knocked my socks off. I think your on to something here. It's like edibles without the calories.

 

[Rascio]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Thanks for such a quick and detailed response.

Actually Rascio, tilling the soil outdoors is just as damaging to the SFW as tilling indoors.

I must not have been clear. I get the whole soil conservation and sustainability aspect for outdoor soil. I don't see how that applies in your plant pot.

When you disturb the soil by tilling and amending between grows you rip apart a soil community that has taken months to develop. You're destroying months of microscopic fibrous connections in the mycorrhizal and disrupting communications and distribution systems that will now need to be rebuilt from the ground up again.

This is the bit that I'm questioning, not in general, but in the context of growing cannabis in a pot. As you know I'm learning all this stuff about soil sciences beside you. My research is hampered by a lack of cannabis specific info.

For example, have you found studies showing what kinds of mycos form relationships with cannabis? I haven't found anything conclusively showing the ecto kind of mycos developing around cannabis roots. All the cannabis specific studies I've found so far talk about the kind of myco that infects the roots and form helpful little laboratories within the infected tissue. If I'm not mistaken, the endo kind of mycos do not form the massive network of fungal hyphae that the ecto-mycorrhizae do. I'd love to be corrected in this, its just that my own research has been inconclusive.

As for other components of the soil food web, I don't understand how remixing the soil would disrupt them. My guess is that the soil ecology would reestablish itself very quickly, so long as the mixing procedure didn't kill off the component populations.

When people think about microbial populations, they often forget that distances and speeds are scaled down to micro levels too. A beneficial, mobile protozoa, for example, might very well live its life span travelling along the surface of a soil particle that is too small to see, and never make it to the end before dividing. What has changed in its little world when you till?

here's the important part: it's not necessary to recycle the soil between grows. If you notice signs of some deficiency or you know you're going to be growing a temperamental strain you simply plan to amend in advance of that. You can even feed the worm bin to adjust resource availability enhanced by the worms.

This is the thing. After several grows, dozens of different teas, top dressing with this and that, how can one keep a feel for what inputs are becoming exhausted, and what remains abundant?

The stratigraphic approach has been tried, most notably by The Rev with his layers and spikes. This particular recipe I work with is designed to maximize container growing in the no-till style. One of the things they discovered early on was that the soil performed more efficiently with a homogenous mix of components, being careful to get the most uniform distribution as reasonably possible. Not something to obsess over, to be sure.

This is why I was thinking about soil layers. In a no til grow, stratification is bound to develop over time. Yes there are worms and other critters moving up and down and mixing things, but chemical gradients and gradients of soil particles of different sizes, shapes, and compositions are sure to develop.

The desirability of a homogenous soil is a point for mixing between grows, I think.

I'm just trying to learn, and one of my best learning techniques is to question assumptions.I don't care if I'm wrong, so long as I continue learning.

 

[Graytail]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Y'know, it's just occurred to me after reading Rascio's post ...

No-till requires a robust nematode population, doesn't it? Without that, you get stratification of nutrients, since some will naturally sink to the lowest layer. You need the worms to mix it back in, no?

 

[bassclef]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

i am so incredibly amazed by these no till live soil grows.. I wish I didn't have supersoil going so I could do this right away. Pumped to get to this! I love reading your stuff sue.. the way you explain dirt, you can tell you love it.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

God, I love the way you think. Ok, let's toss all the assumptions aside. It's mostly romance anyway, since there's no way of knowing what is really going on is there? Is anyone studying container soil food webs at all? Let's keep searching. Micro communities moving at micro speeds. That got my brain thinking. You got the grey matter working all over that post. We've only just begun to legalize cannabis and the research is just now beginning. I would hope that we can begin to explore some of these areas. For now we can follow those who garden in a way that suits our personal sensibilities and life style.

I'll be the first to admit that I am following successful growers that developed this soil and have been using it successfully in the way I am attempting to duplicate. Their example is one of extreme success over many years, indicating an ongoing increase in soil health. I have little to no training in soil sciences and only cursory experience as a gardener of my own little plot, which I grew on instinct alone for many years. Hmmmm, maybe there is something to this having a green thumb thing.

I'll be more cautious about presenting my assumptions in a form that rings as fact, and I'll endeavor to find any literature on microbial communities in a micro container setting. Let me craft some intelligent questions and ask some master growers. I'll get back to you on that.

The soils are crafted to fit the intended crop. If you have a schedule of regular amendments and your plants are growing to your satisfaction, you can be somewhat assured that you have found a balance. I can't think of any way, other than having the soil tested, that would determine what's actually still in there. So your choices would be to test your plot or watch your plants. Personally? I'll be watching my plants.

I must say, having worked for a short time in paleontology I have a soft spot for stratigraphy. The thought of particles in my soil forming beds made me smile and feel warm all over. However, I've seen pictures and listened in on conversations of growers with healthy and sizable worm populations in their pots, both surface and deep diving types, and I'd be surprised if those worms don't move all of that soil around at one time or another.

Please, please, please keep asking these questions. I live in the rosy-colored world of the eternal optimist, complicated by this joyful embrace of everything. It's nice to have companions to keep me grounded. You'll have me doing another study of Endo mycorrihizal this afternoon. That's always a good thing.

By the way, your opening post for your first journal (started today for those of you who missed it) was one of the best I have ever read. I can see I'll be knocking on your door frequently. Thank you for choosing to share your brilliant mind here on the pages of my journal.

Quick mind Graytail. We probably had that thought at the same time.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

I'd like to invite anyone interested to our new journal;

New City Grower 4.0
And thanxx Sue for giving me permission to post an invite here. By the way, I tried your Roasted Bud recipe last night with some Sour D and let me tell you; it knocked my socks off. I think your on to something here. It's like edibles without the calories.

I'm really excited about that Reg. How long did you roast it? I know, no calories, or at least none I'm aware of, and the high is clear and open and sooo sweet. I thought it might have been just me. Did you post about it?

 

[NuttyProfessor]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Sue ive really lost the plot lol !!! i mean totally and utterly pmsl !!! nothing can get more nutty ,

give this dwc a go , but with a twist , when the time is right ill keep you posted , trying to do it organic or as close as i can get to it

 

[bassclef]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Thanks for such a quick and detailed response.




I must not have been clear. I get the whole soil conservation and sustainability aspect for outdoor soil. I don't see how that applies in your plant pot.




This is the bit that I'm questioning, not in general, but in the context of growing cannabis in a pot. As you know I'm learning all this stuff about soil sciences beside you. My research is hampered by a lack of cannabis specific info.

For example, have you found studies showing what kinds of mycos form relationships with cannabis? I haven't found anything conclusively showing the ecto kind of mycos developing around cannabis roots. All the cannabis specific studies I've found so far talk about the kind of myco that infects the roots and form helpful little laboratories within the infected tissue. If I'm not mistaken, the endo kind of mycos do not form the massive network of fungal hyphae that the ecto-mycorrhizae do. I'd love to be corrected in this, its just that my own research has been inconclusive.

As for other components of the soil food web, I don't understand how remixing the soil would disrupt them. My guess is that the soil ecology would reestablish itself very quickly, so long as the mixing procedure didn't kill off the component populations.

When people think about microbial populations, they often forget that distances and speeds are scaled down to micro levels too. A beneficial, mobile protozoa, for example, might very well live its life span travelling along the surface of a soil particle that is too small to see, and never make it to the end before dividing. What has changed in its little world when you till?






This is the thing. After several grows, dozens of different teas, top dressing with this and that, how can one keep a feel for what inputs are becoming exhausted, and what remains abundant?



This is why I was thinking about soil layers. In a no til grow, stratification is bound to develop over time. Yes there are worms and other critters moving up and down and mixing things, but chemical gradients and gradients of soil particles of different sizes, shapes, and compositions are sure to develop.

The desirability of a homogenous soil is a point for mixing between grows, I think.

I'm just trying to learn, and one of my best learning techniques is to question assumptions.I don't care if I'm wrong, so long as I continue learning.

I said the same thing in growlow's journal in not so many words, and he says its not good to mix the soil as well. In my experience with fungi(and I have a lot. I'd consider myself an expert mycologist). It's actually really good to shake up the myco and spread it out. Myco tends to bunch up and feed off whatever is closest, turning it and mixing it up allows for the innoculation sites to be spread to all the other food and it actually speeds up colonization.

I use this technique to great degree to help spread out the mycelium in fungi growing and get it all over.. what happens is immediatley after agitation it completely dissapears like its not even there.. but within a few days where there was just one spot of colonization the entire jar will be 100%.. had I not shaken it, it would take far longer.

I think tilling and turning the soil(when dealing with fungals) would be beneficial in spreading them throughout the entire pot, it's not going to kill them and sometimes starting over is not half bad. But i don't know anything about soil biology so don't take me to seriously. It's also not to say that it doesn't have other harmful affects on other things in the soil. that i'm not sure of at all.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Daily Update: Dark Devil Auto - Day 47

The morning started with a neem seed meal top dress on the LOS pots to finally begin some decent IPM. First the SWICK mini garden pots. The SWICK is keeping everything moist, but not wet. So far I'm pleased with what I'm seeing. Adding a bit of water morning and night should keep the community of plants satisfied on this shallow tray. I believe I will finely chop some straw from the balcony strawberry pot for mulch for these three pots.

The 7 gallon pots took a bit more preparation. I decided to clear out the majority of the clover. It's becoming invasive. I left just a few bits to regrow. Some got chopped and dropped and some got bagged for compost.

After culling the clover the mulch got moved to the side, neem was sprinkled around the surface, the mulch got replaced and everything got a nice spraying down with good water. There, that looks much better.

Now I'm going to try and be quiet and let you enjoy the pretty pictures. Zoom in on some of these. I know this is only my second grow, but aren't these trichomes incredible? Or am I just partial to her because she's mine? And look! She grew another 1/4". WooHoo!!!

She looks like such a delicate little thing. Let me assure you, she's like a steel rod. If I ever wanted to learn to train these tiny plants I'd have to start very early in development.

The neem seed meal is all watered in for today. I've already begun to identify the smell as a curative. I can't even begin to explain to you what that means, but it's very similar to how my brain identifies my healing comfrey root brew.

Awww, I really have to go. She's so hard to get away from.

I'm such a sucker for a beautiful leaf shot.

She gets more entrancing every minute. I could stare at these pictures all day long, if I only had the time, which I don't, because I need to do some studying right after I spend some quality time with Dale. Let's learn something about fungi. (Anybody else hear "If I only had a brain" being sung as you read that? )

I hope it was worth the trip for you. Have a wonderful day. It's sunny and hot here but I'm stuck indoors anyway. Dale's fighting depression. Living in limbo takes a dreadful toll. We're still laughing though, and have had a few laughs already this afternoon, inspired by 420 posts, so you help more than you may realize. Get out there and do your part to make the world a more joyful place. Make me proud.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

I said the same thing in growlow's journal in not so many words, and he says its not good to mix the soil as well. In my experience with fungi(and I have a lot. I'd consider myself an expert mycologist). It's actually really good to shake up the myco and spread it out. Myco tends to bunch up and feed off whatever is closest, turning it and mixing it up allows for the innoculation sites to be spread to all the other food and it actually speeds up colonization.

I use this technique to great degree to help spread out the mycelium in fungi growing and get it all over.. what happens is immediatley after agitation it completely dissapears like its not even there.. but within a few days where there was just one spot of colonization the entire jar will be 100%.. had I not shaken it, it would take far longer.

I think tilling and turning the soil(when dealing with fungals) would be beneficial in spreading them throughout the entire pot, it's not going to kill them and sometimes starting over is not half bad. But i don't know anything about soil biology so don't take me to seriously. It's also not to say that it doesn't have other harmful affects on other things in the soil. that i'm not sure of at all.

Yeah, I don't think any of us really knows, at least on our level of cultivation. I appreciate your unique perspective on this. It's one I hadn't considered before. What transpired in my brain as I read that was remembering the effect of pulling out the deep-rooted mustard plants. The soil is loose and friable and those deep roots came right up with little effort, but they caused a shifting of the soil solution from bottom to top. Actions like that might be an effective way to create the jumbling of the medium you speak of without intense tillage by our hand. Maybe I need to plant more of those and utilize them as gentle tilling tools. Hmmmm.

Keep in mind that a successful long-term no-till pot has an active worm population, so there's tillage going on all the time. The no-till means WE don't till.

 

[bassclef]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Yeah, I don't think any of us really knows, at least on our level of cultivation. I appreciate your unique perspective on this. It's one I hadn't considered before. What transpired in my brain as I read that was remembering the effect of pulling out the deep-rooted mustard plants. The soil is loose and friable and those deep roots came right up with little effort, but they caused a shifting of the soil solution from bottom to top. Actions like that might be an effective way to create the jumbling of the medium you speak of without intense tillage by our hand. Maybe I need to plant more of those and utilize them as gentle tilling tools. Hmmmm.

Keep in mind that a successful long-term no-till pot has an active worm population, so there's tillage going on all the time. The no-till means WE don't till.

Yep, i love the idea of letting the worms do it.. had I not just dropped all my spare cash on a few chicken tractors for the farm, i'd be ordering some worms.. they must wait till next month.. and then the worm compost is going to take shape!

 

[Growlow]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

What bassclef is saying about Myco's is spot on! The important thing for me is to strengthen and blow up that biological life as much as possible so in increasing myco's you risk decreasing other essential life. Very much at times a bit of a catch 22

 

[NuttyProfessor]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

outstanding beauty . shes a real gem so natural in her little environment that you have made for her REPS !!

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

What bassclef is saying about Myco's is spot on! The important thing for me is to strengthen and blow up that biological life as much as possible so in increasing myco's you risk decreasing other essential life. Very much at times a bit of a catch 22

How do you personally work to create a balance Growlow? That point about an overpopulation of myco was thought-provoking. There's this idea afloat that more myco is a good thing, and that's always sounded a small bell of warning in the back of my brain. It's a balance we're trying to create. As in other parts of life, all things in moderation.

 

[Sorenna]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Im a lazy learner. I think all this stuff yall are talking about is very interesting. I dont personally like to research. In other words, I want to learn it but I dont want to look up and hunt for the information. lol

I learn lots from watching you guys talk about all these fancy communities and food webs, etc. Fascinating. I dont really have much to contribute to the conversation, so I just absorb it instead.

SweetSue, your young lady is lovely. I like how the lights shade her in purples in the pictures.

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

How do you personally work to create a balance Growlow? That point about an overpopulation of myco was thought-provoking. There's this idea afloat that more myco is a good thing, and that's always sounded a small bell of warning in the back of my brain. It's a balance we're trying to create. As in other parts of life, all things in moderation.

Good instinct, Sue.

"More" as in too many myco isn't helpful. Not enough isn't helpful either.

If the soil is built properly, and the desirable microbes are introduced we'll get just enough. The important thing is that the microbes have a hunger for rocks and minerals....not organic matter so much.

When things are right, a good foliar feeding will send sugars formed in the leaves down to the roots and we'll get those myko fired up in incredible ways.

The soil just has to be right.

 

[SweetSue]

Re: Sweetsue's Tiny Closet - Second Grow - Sweet Dark Devil & Bomb Berry Bomb - CFL -

Good instinct, Sue.

"More" as in too many myco isn't helpful. Not enough isn't helpful either.

If the soil is built properly, and the desirable microbes are introduced we'll get just enough. The important thing is that the microbes have a hunger for rocks and minerals....not organic matter so much.

When things are right, a good foliar feeding will send sugars formed in the leaves down to the roots and we'll get those myko fired up in incredible ways.

The soil just has to be right.

I cannot express enough how much I look forward to watching that happen right before my eyes Doc. So damned excited it's ridiculous. What a sweet adventure this is turning out to be.

Doc, I don't think what happens in the soil food web is confined to microbes breaking down minerals. That organic matter must be of some use, don't you think? There are some organic gardeners right here growing incredible plants with that organic matter you have so little use for. Why is that? Our soils are highly mineralized as well. Are we to believe that it's just those minerals that count? I'm not trying to be smarmy Doc. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on why organic gardening works, because obviously it does.