WheelO's - 360#2 - Auto Collection galore

[CanbisMxmus]

WOF: just an observation from starting seedlings in my VG, I had a lot of males, which is why I removed them from the machine. I believe the plants may be a bit stressed while in sexual development. I've been reading a breeders handbook and it goes into great detail about plant sex and pre-dispositioning for gender likelyhood. The rules may be different for autos, I don't know. Perhaps a preventative measure against males would be to provide a perfect environment until sex is determined (the book mentioned that by the time the fourth internode has developed that the plant has determined it's sex, about 2 weeks), at which point they are machine ready. Just a thought. I was averaging 80-90% female seedlings until I introduced them to rotation, at which it fell to about 50%. Sounds like you are enjoying yourself, which is truly the most important part of growing IMO. I think it is almost as theraputic as the medicine it provides, but that's just me. Keep up the good work...

 

[Keith Lake]

How many strains do you have stocked up at this stage WOF? This seems like such an efficient practice and isolates you from the outside world just that much further.

Great pic update too

 

[WheeloFortune]

right now, i have:

Quite a few Strawberry cough fem's from light poisoning method that seem to hermi on me pretty regularly, but only on the bottom sites not the colas.

about 100 LR#2 seeds from my first turn

i have about 15 seeds that are a LR#2 x Strawberry cough and 15 seeds LR#2 x Holy Shit. I am hoping to pull at least 1 female auto from each cross, but I don't really know if it's realistic because i dont know what genes are dominant.

Everything else i have is in the wheel at the moment, SR, SS, HK, LS, all autos.

Having the KING SR in the works, after this run I am going to have ALOT more seeds, and alot more variety to work with, but I am still planning on buying more seeds to increase my variety further.

This STS method is so cheap and so easy, mixed with the speed and ease of growth in the auto genes, It's going to make breeding and growing from seed much easier and faster than normal breeding methods. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this aspect of this grow.

 

[bigmouthbass]

looking great wheel keep up the good work .May be u can start a seed bank once u get it all done lol. Ill be ur 1st customer.

 

[WheeloFortune]

thanks BMB, I have a lot of learning to do before then.

 

[WheeloFortune]

yo CMX,

someone correct me if they know a little bit more about weed genetics and i am off base,

i dont understand why stressing them early would turn them male? what advantage do they have if they turn male, i can't think of any. if they turned hermie, i can see a definite upside.

lets say a catastrophe occurs and and a lot of them turn from female to male. who is going to make all the seeds? but lets say they turn from female to hermie, then they will have a better chance to survive because there will be more seeds.

Lets say (which im not convinced) that early stress can turn them male, or can turn them hermie. then thats ok i think, because i really only want pure females anyways. if there is a spectrum from most likely to hermie or turn male, to the least likely, i want to be breeding in the least likely. so by letting them go male, and then weeding out those genes as they show, i will be slowly selecting the genes that i want. you can do this with any trait.

the one thing that could throw that idea out is if stress could turn any female into a male with an equal likelihood. And genetics didn't matter. then there would only be disadvantages to letting them turn male or hermie.

p.s. that's what i think is bad about the light poisoning method to get female seed. i think that over generations, you are preferentially choosing genes that will hermie under stress. thats ok when you are such an expert that you don't stress them at all during their cycle, but if you aren't a pro, then those 2nd or 3rd offspring girls will hermie easy. thats why you hear about getting "pure female" because they can take a beating and never hermie and ruin your crop.

anyone agree/disagree?

 

[inferno420]

i have heard the only way to get a pure female is to basicly take a crap load of fems and light stress them over and over and over and weed out all the herms till you find a fem that wont herm. But that can take a very long time.

WoF your way seems to be working i haven't tried it yet but seems to be alot better then light stressing.

i like to think that the gens are mostly picked when its still in seed form but it would make since that if it detects no way to grow into a lady that it might grow balls and hope it can reach a female when it gets older

 

[bigmouthbass]

i had a problem with my crop going hermie 1 time it happened late in flower when i found out i had been leaving my light inside my flower room attached to the celling fan on during dark cycle for about 2 weeks straight.I think also that since u are getting them into the wheel as early as possible it is not putting a big enough stress to male or hermie them. But i have grown crops and it had 3-5 seeds in the whole crop ,took and grew those seeds some were male,some were female,some were hermie u would have be doing something major to male or hermie them like high heat ,excessive burning with nuts, interfering with light schedule

 

[bigmouthbass]

wheel on another note ill be cutting my clones to fill my wheel this week end ,and starting a journal as soon as they are rooted. FINALLY almost there

 

[Propa Gator]

Cannabis Sativa is the only plant to be either male or female. How did this happen? To postulate and theorize is the scientific, I believe only true path to learning, however. This here is some deep shit. WOF, you delve where few dare. Let me point at your recent excellent success through chemistry. Probably hormone stimulation. Does stress do the same, but different?
You may not find logical reasons for all that what is. I believe many of the answers you seek are well beyond normal concerns for MJ breeders .
I agree with whoever about "pure female", a mama that can take a lickin and keep on tickin. I need to find one of them and take care of her. And cut her up.

PG

 

[Keith Lake]

I agree with WOFs logic, particularly the natural selection theme and how to exploit it for best results; provided I'm not the sheep in the scenario

 

[CanbisMxmus]

Everyone is right on track, hormone stimulation is what determines gender of the plant. I learned the hard way with some of my purchased seeds, that stressing definitley causes males. I had topped about half of my seedlings before they showed any signs of sex, and 4 out of 5 of the topped ones turned male, coincidence(?), I don't think so. One of the benefits of living in Cali, is the abundance of second and third generation growers, so after I make a mistake, they are more than happy to tell me what I did wrong. Why stressed plants turn male, I don't know, I just accept it as a fact.

Intersex plants (hermies) only do so if they are genetically predispositioned, they have hermie in their blood, like begets like. Quality feminized seeds come from varieties where the hermie gene has already been bred out, back-breeding until the variety no longer has intersex tendencies, at which point it is considered "true breeding". Read up on phenotypes and the principle behind feminized seeds and perhaps you may gain further insight. I believe intersexing is the plants genetic survival response. Providing optimum environment, and strict photo-period consistancy will minimize intersex tendencies.

I hope this helps.

 

[WheeloFortune]

after much reading on the effects of stress on dioecious plant species, i have learned something new today. thx CMX. you were right, and i was wrong, stress can effect sex.

It is thought that flowering plants evolved from a common hermaphrodite ancestor, and that dioecy evolved from hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism is very common in flowering plants; over 85% are hermaphroditic, whereas only about 6-7% are dioecious and 5-6% are monoecious. this is for all plant species (over 150,000 different species)

Plant hormones (also known as phytohormones) are chemicals that regulate plant growth. Plant hormones are signal molecules produced within the plant, and occur in extremely low concentrations. Hormones regulate cellular processes in targeted cells locally and when moved to other locations, in other locations of the plant. Hormones also determine the formation of flowers, stems, leaves, the shedding of leaves, and the development and ripening of fruit. Plants, unlike animals, lack glands that produce and secrete hormones. Plant hormones shape the plant, affecting seed growth, time of flowering, the sex of flowers, senescence of leaves and fruits. They affect which tissues grow upward and which grow downward, leaf formation and stem growth, fruit development and ripening, plant longevity and even plant death. Hormones are vital to plant growth and lacking them, plants would be mostly a mass of undifferentiated cells.

most of this i knew, but never put 2 and 2 together.

 

[WheeloFortune]

i still think that the genes control a large portion of the chance of change. true dioecious plants will not change or hermie under any cirumstances (weed is not a true dioecious species) but i think weed is part dioecious. those are the gene i want to isolate, (true breeders) so hey, 'f it. let them cheang and i will kill them for it. muahahaha.

anyways it will be interesting to see how many LS are fem. i did stress them, and they are supposed to be feminized. this will be a nice little test for me.

 

[WheeloFortune]

speaking of tests, a while ago i actually did the RW test to see if there was any ebb and flow (tidal movement) inside the RW.

i think the answer is no. i'm pretty convinced anyways. i think that the wicking effect is too strong. both halves of the RW were within a couple grams of each other, and this was shortly after a watering, so there should have been enough excess to flow tidally if it was going to. i have pics i can post when i get home if you want, but its not that exciting.

 

[maxximus]

speaking of tests, a while ago i actually did the RW test to see if there was any ebb and flow (tidal movement) inside the RW.

i think the answer is no. i'm pretty convinced anyways. i think that the wicking effect is too strong. both halves of the RW were within a couple grams of each other, and this was shortly after a watering, so there should have been enough excess to flow tidally if it was going to. i have pics i can post when i get home if you want, but its not that exciting.

How did you test your theory for this? Did you cut the block into halves and weight the bottom compared to the top one when recently soaked? If so did you try this ant differing saturation levels?

Cheers,
Maxx

 

[TorturedSoul]

Cannabis Sativa is the only plant to be either male or female.

There are other dioecious plants out there.

 

[WheeloFortune]

^^^ tor is def right, just like i said exactly at 4:20 today, the smartest minute of the day, over 85% are hermaphroditic, whereas only about 6-7% are dioecious and 5-6% are monoecious. this is for all plant species.

 

[WheeloFortune]

maxx,

yes i admit i only ran one test, hardly overwhelming proof, but enough to convince me for now. I ran this about 2 hours after it fed. i figured that was enough time to let the WR evaporate some of it, or do whatever it was gonna do. i am convinced that the capillary action holds the water in place.

here is the top

and the bottom

and here is one side by side so you can see how accurately i cut it in half, i only did it by eye.

after i too these pics, i squeezed out all of the water i could into bowls, and it looked like the same amount. i think i cut it as close to in half as possible by eye. i was happy with it.

i know its not done with lab procedures, but they were dead nuts even in weight. if there is a tidal effect, it would be minute and require more accurate measurements to detect.

 

[WheeloFortune]

oh yeah, and i took it out on top, so if there was a measurable effect, the heavier one should have been the top