SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[Fenderbender]

Depends on how the container is built. Specifically does it have a built in air gap? I think that may be the system @bobrown14 uses. He grows some monster plants and leaves the garden for extended periods so even if it's not a SIP it seems like a great setup.

Well it has some kind of valve system that only gives when needed and just uses gravity for irrigation.
I see everyone using buckets or pots so no more air pruning and anti or delayed rootbound measures? as I kinda liked that not growing in round or square plastic.
Could a system be fashioned with root pouches? as I was thinking if you fill the bottom up with perlite or hydro pebbles and then soil and place them in a base like those autopots... that could be an oxygen rich wicking area?

Although with any system I've tried so far where there is a nutrient tank or a vat below the roots, roots have always tried to invade it however they could.

 

[Azimuth]

I see everyone using buckets or pots so no more air pruning and anti or delayed rootbound measures?

There is root pruning going on in these. Check out the first post in this thread for a diagram showing the air gap. This air gap also provides air to the inner roots allowing for a wetter soil environment. Without it you'd get root rot most likely.

Could a system be fashioned with root pouches?

You bet. On the second page of this thread I did a 'design' post. You could scale down the 17g design for a smaller pot. Simply put, a reservoir container (maybe a dish washing pan?) wide enough to fit your pot. Then lay some 4" perforated landscape drainage pipe in the bottom of the pan, drill a drain hole in the pan at about 3" up, cover with soil or perlite, hydroton clay balls, etc and set the fabric bag on top of that. The soil will wick the water up from the reservoir and that's it.

Another way would be to build it with a void in the bottom of the fabric bag using an upside down food storage container with lots of small holes. Then sit that in a deep saucer. I'd still do a fill tube for better air insulation down at the bottom though.

Either way you'll get air to those roots which is the key element.

 

[CannabisMan420]

Azimuth:
I think we still need to work out the early days with these pots.

I think just keeping the soil moist and keeping the reservoir low or even empty may be the trick as you suggest. I'm going to try this on my next SIP run. Maybe going to have to buy more buckets, but I'll let the experiment run as-is for now with a single plant.

 

[bluter]

been watching this with a lot of interest. my outdoor hydro growing beds are very similar. i'd like to move to this system for a try at some time. the fact i have to move plants between 2 locations has me jammed up though.

 

[Fenderbender]

When I look at the young plants they certainly have hydro characteristics well yeah if the plant can have constant access to what she wants without roots getting rot.. they grow big! and I'm guessing the main advantage here you keep the buffer qualities of soil and the feeding frenzy of hydro.

And maybe less lab style fiddling & measuring?

 

[Will11]

Hey everyone… here’s my addition to the SIP club. She just broke soil this morning. I followed @Buds Buddy process of watering roughly 1 gallon the day before and then planting. She’s a White Widow Auto. Let’s see if I can keep from killing her! I have not filled the reservoir yet but there’s a lot of damp soil still from first watering. 2 questions: when should I fill the reservoir up? And when it’s time to fill it, should I fill it all the way or just half way? Thanks for the help!

 

[Emilya Green]

Don't fill up the rez yet or your new seedling will stall out for a couple of weeks looking confused and overwatered. Water it lightly from the top as you would a new seedling in a large container of soil, and read my article on how to do that if you haven't yet. Once it figures out the water situation though, watch out! This plant will explode with growth! Welcome to the SIP club!

 

[Azimuth]

When I look at the young plants they certainly have hydro characteristics well yeah if the plant can have constant access to what she wants without roots getting rot.. they grow big! and I'm guessing the main advantage here you keep the buffer qualities of soil and the feeding frenzy of hydro.

And maybe less lab style fiddling & measuring?

Lots of advantages to grow with SIP. Easier watering. No fail watering, every time! Air to the roots allows wetter soil than normal making plentiful moisture and nutes always available to the plant, soil as a buffer if you go that route. But I think the main one is it makes most of us exponentially better growers.

Less fiddling? How about no fiddling. I grow organic and literally all I have to do is pour water down the fill tube until it comes out the overflow hole. I do topdress periodically but I'm not even really sure I have to do that.

In my view, this is the way the vast majority of growers should grow. Happier, healthier and  much bigger plants for no extra effort. In fact less effort for many of us with struggles to water properly.

SIP makes growing so much more fun!

 

[Azimuth]

Don't fill up the rez yet or your new seedling will stall out for a couple of weeks looking confused and overwatered. Water it lightly from the top as you would a new seedling in a large container of soil, and read my article on how to do that if you haven't yet. Once it figures out the water situation though, watch out! This plant will explode with growth! Welcome to the SIP club!

What she said. ^^

That's how I did my last plant that's just been flipped. Treated it like a normal seedling for the first week or so. I did only water from the top the one time, right down the stem and I did put a little water in the reservoir for the roots to find but not very much. Just enough to keep things moist down there. It took 7-10 days to see the SIP effect but then it was pretty remarkable.

And yes, Welcome to The Club!

 

[Buds Buddy]

Hey everyone… here’s my addition to the SIP club. She just broke soil this morning. I followed @Buds Buddy process of watering roughly 1 gallon the day before and then planting. She’s a White Widow Auto. Let’s see if I can keep from killing her! I have not filled the reservoir yet but there’s a lot of damp soil still from first watering. 2 questions: when should I fill the reservoir up? And when it’s time to fill it, should I fill it all the way or just half way? Thanks for the help!

Looks good to me. I just planted my seeds this morning. Should pop in about 3 days. I wait a week after they pop up to fill the res. I've been filling it all the way.

 

[Will11]

Don't fill up the rez yet or your new seedling will stall out for a couple of weeks looking confused and overwatered. Water it lightly from the top as you would a new seedling in a large container of soil, and read my article on how to do that if you haven't yet. Once it figures out the water situation though, watch out! This plant will explode with growth! Welcome to the SIP club!

Thanks Em! I appreciate the encouragement. I’ll definitely reread your watering post. I know it’s super helpful.

 

[Will11]

Looks good to me. I just planted my seeds this morning. Should pop in about 3 days. I wait a week after they pop up to fill the res. I've been filling it all the way.

Thanks Buds! I appreciate you guiding me through this. Seedling looks happy and should definitely have enough water for at least seven days. I’ll be sure to follow your auto grow.

 

[Will11]

What she said. ^^

That's how I did my last plant that's just been flipped. Treated it like a normal seedling for the first week or so. I did only water from the top the one time, right down the stem and I did put a little water in the reservoir for the roots to find but not very much. Just enough to keep things moist down there. It took 7-10 days to see the SIP effect but then it was pretty remarkable.

And yes, Welcome to The Club!

Appreciate the reply and guidance. This community has been so awesome in helping me succeed! So thank you for inviting me to the SIP club!

 

[Azimuth]

A couple of SIP observations today.

First has anyone else noticed a dramatically reduced transition to flowering time in these things? I have a plant I recently flipped and noticed obvious pistiling after 3-4 days when it usually takes more like 7-10. Now this is a new strain for me and it could definitely be strain related, but I'll have to pay closer attention next round.

Second, I recently potted up a clone that's been sitting in my Limbo Land area where rooted clones hang out with low light, low water, very little nutes etc, waiting for their turn to be promoted to The Show. It's been there for at least a couple of months I think, so not a new plant and a typical pot root structure. It's been in a 9oz (65 ml) Solo cup and got up-potted to my 2 gallon (8L) bucket a week ago.

I lightly watered it once and filled the reservoir once and let it be. I'm already showing new growth and none of the normal overwatered with look I'm accustomed to seeing. After about three days I started hanging weights and now at day 7 the tips are already fighting the weights and turning upwards.

So a much better start than I usually get and I'm starting to think Em's idea that starting a plant in a smaller container to get it established might very well indeed make for an easier transition. So, small sample size for sure (N=1) and I'm not sure you really save any time in the end if growing from seed, but it is a better looking plant from the get go.

So I didn't have my normal 10-15 day establishment period where the plant looks droopy and overwatered before getting its act together, but then again the small cup phase does cost some time, a couple of weeks probably. So, this will take more observation, and since I don't grow much from seed I can easily build in the transition period to the normal pot set-up.

 

[Azimuth]

Appreciate the reply and guidance. This community has been so awesome in helping me succeed! So thank you for inviting me to the SIP club!

Glad to have you!

It seems like we all have slightly different approaches to the startup phase but there are some basic principles they all share. But once you're through the transition phase it's Katy bar the door!

 

[Emilya Green]

I have noticed both a faster transition time and a faster finish! I was also going to watch for it closer this next time just to see what happens, but my clones definitely transitioned faster than I expected and the ones before that, the purple Kush in the 5 gallon sips, also transitioned at least a day earlier than I expected.

 

[Fenderbender]

I have 4 of these hydrobuckets that fit in each other.. could probably use those to make the thing..

or of course I could just do hydro although I do like the non fiddling part like Azimuth said.
Current soil grow is pretty non fiddly though, with Bill's method you know you just water and the pauzes between watering shorten the bigger the plant gets.. and when you think you need to water it never hurts to wait a day

 

[Azimuth]

* SIP Design observations *

I've got two plants in two different SIP designs now in flower. Both are based on the designs shown earlier on page two of this thread, Here.

The older one is just beginning week 7 and will be starting it's Draughting phase today. It is is in my old style based on the design in the video at the end of the post, although instead of the bucket-in-bucket design I did it all in a single bucket by building a false floor from a bucket lid cut down to fit. The basic design is that the soil is held up out of the water by a floor but it also has a cylinder of soil protruding through that floor from above down into the water below (ResDog calls it a 'wicking foot') and that serves as a wick for the water to move upwards into the rest of the pot. This is one of the designs most commonly found on the 'net for diy versions and is based on the original SIP design, the Earthbox.

The other plant is only 6 days into flower, showed pistils at about day 3 or 4 and is in my newer design based on the lessons I learned from my experiments beginning Here. This one has an upside down food storage container that serves as a dome in the bottom that defines the reservoir and keeps soil out while providing a void for the water and air. The soil fills the pot, draping around this dome or void and is based more on the design of the GroBucket insert that @Buds Buddy uses.

So, the reservoir areas are opposite/negative images of each other. The first is a cylinder of soil surrounded by water while the second is an empty space for water in the middle which is surrounded by soil.

Both have roughly the same reservoir capacity, but I'm finding the newer plant in the dome version is already drawing the full 1L reservoir daily while the older plant is only drinking 3/4 of its reservoir. This is consistent with those run in the 1L experiment, and my thought is that the more water taken up, the bigger the plant since that water has to be going somewhere.

In the experiments in my 'Alchemy' thread I found that the roots seemed to find the reservoir area much more easily and quickly in the dome version. I built the pots in that experiment using clear 1L containers so I could watch the roots and their interface with the water. Obviously I can't see what's going on in the buckets but I'd bet it's similar.

Both of the plants in the 1L experiment produced great plants so it may not matter all that much in the end, but I will say in my current round my results so far are consistent with the experiment.

Still, it's not a true experiment since it's a very small sample size, I have different strains going and different sized containers now than before so certainly enough variables to call the results into question. But, they are consistent with the respective pot designs that I have gotten before.

So, I'm staying with the Dome design for future grows. They are easier and quicker to build, seem to increase water uptake, and have a better root structure at the end of the day. As I said, it may not make all that much difference in the end, but why not try to maximize the output?

Azi out.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Depends on how the container is built. Specifically does it have a built in air gap? I think that may be the system @bobrown14 uses. He grows some monster plants and leaves the garden for extended periods so even if it's not a SIP it seems like a great setup.

No Air Gap. Those are Auto Pots. They have a float at each pot to keep the water level at a certain height. These are the pots that Air Domes were designed for. I use to have the 4 -pot 7 gal. set up of these.

 

[Fenderbender]

But I'm still confused as to how this should work as air gap.. with a perforated top that gives access to the soil? how do you prevent roots from growing straight into the water where you have to end up putting in an airstone to prevent stagnation and root rot and now you're in dwc territory..

Or how about that autopot base, that indeed keeps feeding with a valve but what if I place two root pouches on that with the bottom 2 inch filled with hydropebbles and perlite and then soil so that provides an oxygen rich wicking environment?