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Emmie's Berry D'licious 2019 True Living Organic: No AACT, SCROG, COB, SuperSoil Production Grow & Seed Run

PCaddict

Well-Known Member
Very glad to hear that PC. And hey, if they are CXB3590 chips they are not inferior period! If you ask questions about the driver/s though, just ask for the Mean Well model number of the driver, if they are HLG's etc they are top notch! I wonder what model drivers they are using so I can look up power efficiency of that particular driver is all.
Seems like MARS is stepping up the COB game after seeing too many DIY panels haha. This once again shows how "we" little guys in these threads push companies to raise the bar. This is the same science we all do by growing and learning from each others journals. Nothing but good comes of it. Good for them! As a company trying to seperate themselves from others for marketing it makes sense to add some other small LED's to try to set their lights apart or make them special. As far as infrared 730nm area em's chips put 20% of thier relative spectral power from 730nm-780nm. That's a huge amount of IR but Em is running the 3000k 90CRI chips.
Screenshot_20191015-235608_Google.jpg

I know that once Em adds 2 of the 5000k chips she will be amazed at not only how powerful the array will become but even though the 5000k chips are 70CRI it will make the whole array together look like 100% natural sunlight to her eyes too.

Anyways, sorry for the back and forth Em, I just didnt want to leave one of your followers offended. I'm sorry and glad to hear no offense was taken because none was meant. I'm off to bed. I look forward to seeing this grow come to term.
One thing you did say that has me curious is about pointing the light out towards the edge of the plant can you explain why ? I am a total newb grower and this will be my first indoor grow so I have no experience with lights and adjusting them either by height or adjusting power the on them. I have the info they gave about distance for seedling Veg and flower but the other stuff like pointing to the edge I know nothing about. I know the good folks on this forum have dealt with this before so they have it figured out so us newbs don't have to make the same mistakes Lol.
 

bluter

Well-Known Member
@PCaddict

you can do way better than those mars lights.
especially if you're gonna invest in 4

probably even in a mars light. you can reach out to them for guidance.
do yourself a favor and look at timber grow and budget led before pulling the trigger.
they are site sponsors as well.
 

PCaddict

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure these are as good as the HLGs but the ones on the driver I have are ELGs I copied the specs from a vendor that sales them and this is their specs. I got the light out and checked the model number and this is it. It also says out put power is 151.2 watts but still a long way off from a true 300 watt light. I know companies over state their out put wattage and I know that's a maximum that the light will never reach, but what about the rest is it good I really don't know.
Data sheet

manufacturer MeanWell
manufacturer's nameELG-150-54A-3Y
output voltage [V]54
output current [A]2,8
output power [W]151,2
output voltage tolerance: [%]2
ripple [mVp-p]350
efficiency [%]91
 
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PCaddict

Well-Known Member
@PCaddict

you can do way better than those mars lights.
especially if you're gonna invest in 4

probably even in a mars light. you can reach out to them for guidance.
do yourself a favor and look at timber grow and budget led before pulling the trigger.
they are site sponsors as well.
I already bought them I bought two and got four so I have them now. I think I got a good deal for that price.
 

bluter

Well-Known Member
elgs are a limited line of budget minded drivers mean well has marketed as a means of maintaining market share.
they are aimed right at this market.

there is nothing wrong with them in this application. they actually have longer warranty than the hlg. at least to the mfr. mars doesn't back their lights all that long. the main drawback to them is the limited number of drivers in the series.
 

PCaddict

Well-Known Member
This message just came from Sara
Hi PCaddict, it is the CXB3590 chip real one, that is why it is expensive. There are companies making CXB 3090 , which is lower cost, but our is the real one, please don't worry. and the driver is meanwell driver, it might not be the highest end of meanwell, but it is suitable for the lights, the same on on the SP 250. :) Please don't worry about the quality, meanwell driver offers great warranty on it, and the higher end ones are for those bigger wattage lights, our COB don't need that big wattage, so don't need those big driver. :)
 

PCaddict

Well-Known Member
This message just came from Sara
Hi PCaddict, it is the CXB3590 chip real one, that is why it is expensive. There are companies making CXB 3090 , which is lower cost, but our is the real one, please don't worry. and the driver is meanwell driver, it might not be the highest end of meanwell, but it is suitable for the lights, the same on on the SP 250. :) Please don't worry about the quality, meanwell driver offers great warranty on it, and the higher end ones are for those bigger wattage lights, our COB don't need that big wattage, so don't need those big driver. :)
So they have the same driver as the SP250 which is the other lights I was considering so the lights should work fine for my 5X5 tent, At least I think it will from what others have said and from what Mars says four of them will do flower for a 4X4 area and I will need some room to move around so I got a 5X5 tent for my Big ass 6 foot 2 inch 235 pound body Lol.
 
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SQl2kGuy

Well-Known Member
Bloom, Day 19
I feel comfortable in saying that stretch is now over and that the new buds have gotten as close as they wanted to the lights. Even at full output, there are no complaints to be seen on the upper leaves, so for now I am going to let things go as they stand. If need be, I can take the canister filter down from the ceiling and put it on the floor, and I could get another 6" of light space... but for now I am happy with things the way they are and there seems to be plenty of space to work with.

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Next we will go on frost patrol, to see what is happening in that department:

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Lastly, some pretty bud shots and views from the top of the canopy
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Awesome!!! Frost all the way down the leaf!!! And a beautiful canopy!!!

So stretch lasted about three weeks then?

PS ... If you haven't voted for @Emilya yet ... hurry over and show some gratitude :)
 

Old Salt

Member of the Year: 2019 - Member of the Month: Apr, Nov 2019
I'm not saying they are or would. What I did say is those dont look like any CXB3590 I have ever seen, and they dont even look close. Perhaps MARS has a special deal with CREE and special made chips for them? IDK...This is what every CXB3590 I have ever seen looks like.
Screenshot_20191015-224705_Chrome.jpg
....But why do ALL light manufacturers HIGHLY inflate thier advertised coverage areas? They know we are growing weed and not lettuce! Why do they RIDICULOUSLY inflate their advertised wattage? Why do they forget to mention that the fans in their lights are using 30 of the watts of the 180 watts truly being used in their same light advertised as a "1000 watt" LED? Marketing!
Most of those manufacturers use the maximum power ratings for computing the power of the light. '1000 watt' usually means there are 100 LEDs each capable of using 10 watts. My King LED 1800W dimmable uses six COBs rated for a maximum of 300 watts each. The light draws 315 watts from the wall. The drivers are 85% efficient, so only 267.67 watts makes it past them. Drop another 18 watts for the three low voltage fans, and only about 250 watts is available at the COBs to change into light energy. This type of performance is quite normal for low cost LED based lights.


Also, I can get online right now and buy absolutely any item including lights counterfeited from China with a fake brand name printed right on it. Do you have any idea how hard it is for anyone in the USA to sue a Chinese company for counterfeiting goods? I can think of several large corporations that have sued and won yet the Chinese company still sells the same product because theres really nothing we can do about it. Motorola is one of those.
Am I saying MARS does this? No, but they are just as guilty as the rest for way over inflating numbers for marketing purposes so I take that into account.
All I am saying is it sounds like you have a great light with CXB's in it but.....check on exactly what Mean Well driver they are using because that is an area where while using a mean well they COULD cut costs and use the cheaper, less efficient Mean Wells just so they can say they are using Mean Well. Get my drift? I'm honestly not trying to bash your light but my curiosity raises questions.

Lastly, companies like MARS keep lights as small as they can for shipping cost purposes. This also makes the advertised coverage area claims very uneven. With COBS, as Emilya is now seeing, you want them more positioned on the edges of your grow area because the center will still have higher par numbers. One of the biggest advantages of homemade arrays is that you can build a very even canopy coverage and therefore watt vs watt a much more effective light for the whole grow area and not just the center. This is also a big problem with all of the red/blue panels. They are small and focus 70% of your core coverage in the center no matter what. Panel size is huge in efficiency. Huge!
This is precisely why I built my own COB array. It is seriously overpowered for the 2' X 4' tent, as when I built it I did not trust anyone where lights were concerned. Since then I have won two Mars Hydro lights, the TSL and TSW-2000. Both of these have large panels for their coverage areas. Multiple COBs such as @PCaddict has, can do the same thing. Spread them out to get the best possible coverage for your grow area.

To close, I'm not knocking on MARS lights anymore than any other light companies out there. I have grown some great weed with lights made by MARS. I just ask questions so I know exactly what I have and what I can expect.
Mars Hydro is probably one of the best of the low to mid cost grow light manufacturers. They publish the PPE of their lights, which is a measure of how efficiently the fixture turns electrical energy into light. Like @PCaddict, I'm pretty certain that Mars Hydro is using CXB 3590s in their COBs. They would be out of business overnight if it were proven they used something else. The difference in appearance could be due to the installation methods used.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
One thing you did say that has me curious is about pointing the light out towards the edge of the plant can you explain why ? I am a total newb grower and this will be my first indoor grow so I have no experience with lights and adjusting them either by height or adjusting power the on them. I have the info they gave about distance for seedling Veg and flower but the other stuff like pointing to the edge I know nothing about. I know the good folks on this forum have dealt with this before so they have it figured out so us newbs don't have to make the same mistakes Lol.
What we have found when running these COBS in an array is that the amount of light hitting the canopy in any one spot is cumulative... that is, if you look at the total light hitting one spot in the room, it is being affected by the light not just from the COB directly over it, but also some of the light from the other COBS in the array is adding to the total light in that spot too. In a reflective room, the most light energy is concentrated in the center of the room, that point being within reach of all of the COBS on the array, but as you get to one of the corners of the room, the influence from COBS clear on the other side are not felt as much. The center is being added to by all 6 of the cobs, but any one of the corners is not seeing a lot of light from the 2 COBS on the far side of the array.
 

Old Salt

Member of the Year: 2019 - Member of the Month: Apr, Nov 2019
Here's what Emilya was saying above, as a graphic. The first image is for a single COB or LED. Notice that when you move away from the center of the light over the canopy the amount of light at the canopy drops. At a distance of half the height you only get about 71% of the light at the center.

Next we have four LEDs or COBs spaced the same distance as the fixture's height above the canopy. You'll notice that the light at the canopy is more intense than that put out by any single emitter. The curve is much flatter than that for a single emitter, so the light over the canopy is much more even.

 

Old Salt

Member of the Year: 2019 - Member of the Month: Apr, Nov 2019
‎CXB3590-0000-000R0HCB30G‎. Is this the right model? If so these are not even that bad 45$ Canadian. What heat sink you guys using for these?
I used Citizen CLU-048-1216s. They have the same spectrum, but are a little less efficient, costing less than 1/2 that of the CXBs. Running the numbers I found the total cost of ownership (purchase price + power) for five years was identical for the two COBs. It was a pay in advance, or pay as I go choice. My choice was to pay as I go.
 

PCaddict

Well-Known Member
Here's what Emilya was saying above, as a graphic. The first image is for a single COB or LED. Notice that when you move away from the center of the light over the canopy the amount of light at the canopy drops. At a distance of half the height you only get about 71% of the light at the center.

Next we have four LEDs or COBs spaced the same distance as the fixture's height above the canopy. You'll notice that the light at the canopy is more intense than that put out by any single emitter. The curve is much flatter than that for a single emitter, so the light over the canopy is much more even.

Thank you this helps me understand the point better I get a better mental image from pictures so that helps Old Salt.
 

fanleaf

Well-Known Member
Most of those manufacturers use the maximum power ratings for computing the power of the light. '1000 watt' usually means there are 100 LEDs each capable of using 10 watts. My King LED 1800W dimmable uses six COBs rated for a maximum of 300 watts each. The light draws 315 watts from the wall. The drivers are 85% efficient, so only 267.67 watts makes it past them. Drop another 18 watts for the three low voltage fans, and only about 250 watts is available at the COBs to change into light energy. This type of performance is quite normal for low cost LED based lights.
I for years have been well aware how they come up with the inflated numbers they do and why they do it.
Take a 137W capable, single CXB3590 and put a 50 watt driver behind it so it dont burn out quick because of the lack of effective cooling to be able to sustain itself at a higher wattage and yet still market it as a 137 watt light because the number is bigger and therefore looks bigger and badder to the uninformed. No matter how its cut, it's not honest.

See, if a single LED for instance is capable with good cooling to run at 100 watts but is build to run at only 30 watts and sold as a 100w LED light as all of them do, then I wonder if a company builds a grow light using a Single LED chip that is only capable of running at 5 watts and builds that light with a driver that is capable to push 2500 watts it would be no different than what they already do!
Just because 1 component in a light is capable of running 1000 watts is it right to call it a 1000 watt light if it only runs 300 watts?
If that's the case, I will build a LED with a single 3 watt chip, a 3 watt driver but I will use a power cord thick enough to handle 1000 watts and sell it as a 1000 watt light...Why not? 1 component in that light could support 1000 watts just the same as all of these companies do...

If you look at it this way, we can see how blatant the lie is and how they can "justify" saying what they say.
I will not give credit to any company that purposely uses whatever they can twist up to take advantage of people as badly as they do. It's not just a small difference but in many cases I see companies that now appear to use the cheapest 10 watt chips and pack 100 of them in a light the size of a pack of cigarettes, run them at 1 watt each so they can skimp on drivers, cooling etc and market as a 1000 watt light because 10w x 100=1000.
It's wrong and I get so tired of feeling badly for those I see that show up to this forum and think they did well on thier 1000w light purchase just to have to break the news to them that they wanted thier money and thier light that actually used 98 watts will not cover the 4 foot by 4 foot area as advertised. Basically, either they need to buy 6 more of the same light or accept that they threw their hard earned money away to a Chinese company. Its deceptive, nasty and a total scam.
If I'm wrong then maybe I should also buy the extended warranty for my vehicles when people of equal integrity spam my phone again today for the 1000th time telling me it's my last notice.

I wont reply any further to light related questions in Ems thread. It's not fair and has gone too far. Maybe by my own doing.
 
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Old Salt

Member of the Year: 2019 - Member of the Month: Apr, Nov 2019
I for years have been well aware how they come up with the inflated numbers they do and why they do it.
Take a 137W capable, single CXB3590 and put a 50 watt driver behind it so it dont burn out quick because of the lack of effective cooling to be able to sustain itself at a higher wattage and yet still market it as a 137 watt light because the number is bigger and therefore looks bigger and badder to the uninformed. No matter how its cut, it's not honest.

See, if a single LED for instance is capable with good cooling to run at 100 watts but is build to run at only 30 watts and sold as a 100w LED light as all of them do, then I wonder if a company builds a grow light using a Single LED chip that is only capable of running at 5 watts and builds that light with a driver that is capable to push 2500 watts it would be no different than what they already do!
Just because 1 component in a light is capable of running 1000 watts is it right to call it a 1000 watt light if it only runs 300 watts?
If that's the case, I will build a LED with a single 3 watt chip, a 3 watt driver but I will use a power cord thick enough to handle 1000 watts and sell it as a 1000 watt light...Why not? 1 component in that light could support 1000 watts just the same as all of these companies do...

If you look at it this way, we can see how blatant the lie is and how they can "justify" saying what they say.
I will not give credit to any company that purposely uses whatever they can twist up to take advantage of people as badly as they do. It's not just a small difference but in many cases I see companies that now appear to use the cheapest 10 watt chips and pack 100 of them in a light the size of a pack of cigarettes, run them at 1 watt each so they can skimp on drivers, cooling etc and market as a 1000 watt light because 10w x 100=1000.
It's wrong and I get so tired of feeling badly for those I see that show up to this forum and think they did well on thier 1000w light purchase just to have to break the news to them that they wanted thier money and thier light that actually used 98 watts will not cover the 4 foot by 4 foot area as advertised. Basically, either they need to buy 6 more of the same light or accept that they threw their hard earned money away to a Chinese company. Its deceptive, nasty and a total scam.
If I'm wrong then maybe I should also buy the extended warranty for my vehicles when people of equal integrity spam my phone again today for the 1000th time telling me it's my last notice.

I wont reply any further to light related questions in Ems thread. It's not fair and has gone too far. Maybe by my own doing.
We're on the same page with that, and I've been singing that song for about two years. At least some manufacturers publish the actual draw of their lights. King LED does not, Mars Hydro does.
 

Reave

Well-Known Member
The LED lighting industry is no different than any other. They all fudge the numbers because they all fudge the numbers. If one company dug in their heals and didn’t do that then they would get your respect while missing out on the business of millions of plebs. It’s fairly common knowlege that the wattage of led is based on the addition of the max watts of each chip. It is not a lie they just can’t actually be powered at that because the driver is too low watts.

Again every industry does this to some effect. wifi speeds, network packets, 5G. It’s all marketing wank. Get over it because it’s not going anywhere and every company that wants to compete is forced to do it.
 

stoneotter

Member of the Month: July 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: November 2019
Today is watering day and I have started the process this evening with the first gallon of Recharge/Terpinator/CalmagPhos+. The added calmag is because I am now seeing signs of a mag deficiency in some of the lower fans that are still on the plant. Over the next several hours I will get these bags to hold at least 2 more gallons, and then I am going to push a bit and see how much extra I can give before runoff.

Today at the end of stretch I have noted a very interesting thing. Remember that I told you that I expected to see the trunk sizes increase during stretch, and they have, but the most interesting plant showing this increase is the @Vulx plant, M&M. Her trunk size increased to the point that she almost caught up with Red, and Red grew a bit too, as did Tara. The point is, the Vulx plant increased the most. Also, looking at the canopy, the Vulx has allowed M&M to catch up there too, and now her canopy is just about even with the other two. This right here, is a significant sign that the Vulx grow is showing an advantage and I am very pleased to be able to see it so clearly. Her watering needs are mostly identical to her sisters, but by seeing this extra growth, she is obviously taking up more nutes or has developed better roots than her siblings or both. I am impressed.
Hi Em, when you add the calmag+ on first sight of a deficiency how much do you use? The Rev has me thinking 10 drops/gallon of ro. You on the other hand seem to be thinking outside of his box.
Nice Vulx work!
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
Hi Em, when you add the calmag+ on first sight of a deficiency how much do you use? The Rev has me thinking 10 drops/gallon of ro. You on the other hand seem to be thinking outside of his box.
Nice Vulx work!
Remember that I am an organic and natural nutrient gardener, and since most of my concoctions are of unknown strength, I don't put a lot of stock in precise measurements. In most things of this nature, my go to starting place is 1 tablespoon per gallon. I try that, and if it looks like I need more, I double it. I can not recall a time when I decided later that one of these guesses had been too much, but in the case of my calmagphos+ supplement, I simply don't use it all the time... I just use it when I clearly see the plant calling for more magnesium, or later on if I saw the spots showing me that there was a calcium deficiency going on. In my grow, I try to default to just giving plain water or water with Recharge in it, unless I see a clear need for something else, except this run where I am trying to see the effect of Terpinator all through the bloom period. Calmagphos+ has only been given a couple of times and my dandelion extract only once so far in this current grow... making my plants rely mainly on what is already built into the soil.
I guess it also depends on which brand of calmag you are using, but I don't think they all come in the same concentrations. Ten drops sounds like about 1/2 teaspoon, and that might work just fine... but I tend to go on the heavy side if I see a deficiency and usually would choose to go with the full dosage, whatever that may be for that product, and then once the problem seems to be cleared up (or not spreading any more) I would try to get away from using it.
 

stoneotter

Member of the Month: July 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: November 2019
Remember that I am an organic and natural nutrient gardener, and since most of my concoctions are of unknown strength, I don't put a lot of stock in precise measurements. In most things of this nature, my go to starting place is 1 tablespoon per gallon. I try that, and if it looks like I need more, I double it. I can not recall a time when I decided later that one of these guesses had been too much, but in the case of my calmagphos+ supplement, I simply don't use it all the time... I just use it when I clearly see the plant calling for more magnesium, or later on if I saw the spots showing me that there was a calcium deficiency going on. In my grow, I try to default to just giving plain water or water with Recharge in it, unless I see a clear need for something else, except this run where I am trying to see the effect of Terpinator all through the bloom period. Calmagphos+ has only been given a couple of times and my dandelion extract only once so far in this current grow... making my plants rely mainly on what is already built into the soil.
I guess it also depends on which brand of calmag you are using, but I don't think they all come in the same concentrations. Ten drops sounds like about 1/2 teaspoon, and that might work just fine... but I tend to go on the heavy side if I see a deficiency and usually would choose to go with the full dosage, whatever that may be for that product, and then once the problem seems to be cleared up (or not spreading any more) I would try to get away from using it.
Thanks. The key is the temporary use and ending when signs go away. My autos had a bit of mag need and the 10 drops seem to have done it but i want to be flexible and safe. I expect "Recharge" delivery today. It's going to be very handy from time to time. Since i don't know when these will want water next it'll be great to have on the spur of the moment.
 
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